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> One important part of the privatization was that the government took on this debt load to unshackle the newly private companies. Which certainly in some acco

> One important part of the privatization was that the government took on this debt load to unshackle the newly private companies. Which certainly in some accounting systems be seen as a bailout or form of government support for these newly privatized companies, which the government probably wouldn't do if they didn't see these rail lines as a form of public good (or at least necessity). I think another user mentioned a little down in this thread that there is a network of mutually supportive companies that are built out along the tracks, shops, hotels, restaurants, all of which benefit from the rail lines supplying customers, and in turn benefit the rail line by providing reasons to use their services outside of a strict A -> B commute. I wonder if location/population has anything to do with both Kyushu and Hokkaido finding themselves in financial trouble. Idk, it seems like fairly straightforward from a smooth-brained layman's non-politician perspective (mine), hey people we have a choice: we get clean on time trains where you can grab a cheap cheesesteak on you way back from work, or we get mobile homeless shelters that drop you off next to the needle exchange van in Berkeley

bobthepanda 2y ago
The other important bits to have functioning rail is that * Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase * Japanese commuting is heavily subsidized to the tune of 100,000JPY a month pretax, so consumers have more spending power specifically on transportation. This is at least one of the theorized causes of Japanese economic centralization since you can’t realize the full value of the benefit outside the megacities.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  > Japanese highways are heavily tolled As an example. For me to get to the nearest large city, it's a 4 hour drive, 7000 yen in highway tolls and around 3000 yen in gas. Or a 2 hour Shinkansen ride for 9000 yen. If you're a solo businessman the choice is a no-brainer. If you're traveling with the family, then you're still gonna drive.
- Avicebron 2y ago
  > Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase this is because of the efficacy of public transport working for most of the populous, getting a car isn't the worst thing in the world, but you need to be able to pay for it, show insurance, whatever. Also don't be a foreigner who can't speak Japanese. Basic rules.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    eh, this is the cart before the horse. the US had public frequent transit systems at the turn of the century. the problem was they couldn't compete with brand new free Interstates. It's hard to compete with free.
    - Avicebron 2y ago
      Well for context, outside of an EZ pass, it costed me about 7$ each way to get from Oakland(hills) to Foster City roughly each way, and I had to drive my own car. And for reference, we call them freeways ;) legacy i know.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        I mean, parking in this lot in Chiyoda is 400JPY for 20 minutes. https://www.parkme.com/en-gb/lot/275008/-tokyo-japan https://www.parkme.com/en-gb/lot/275008/-tokyo-japan That's a significantly higher parking rate than I've ever seen charged in the US. And generally in Japan street parking is not permitted in busy areas.
    - linguae 2y ago
      This issue was compounded by the death of streetcar lines across America, being replaced with buses. In Tokyo some of these streetcar lines evolved into subway and train lines. For example, the stretch of the modern Tokyu Den-en-Toshi Line that goes from Shibuya to Futakotamagawa (where Rakuten’s global headquarters are located) replaced the old Tokyu Tamagawa Line, which was a streetcar line. In an alternate universe, Los Angeles’ once-extensive streetcar system, which I believe was operated by private companies (though I could be wrong), could’ve been upgraded to become an extensive train and subway system. I believe the company that built the streetcar connecting Los Angeles with Pasadena also developed real estate along the route to encourage the use of the streetcar. This is exactly Tokyu’s business model; Tokyu played a major role in the development of “garden suburbs” influenced by the garden city movement of the early 1900s: first with the Den-en-Chofu neighborhood of Tokyo in the 1920s (which is served by the Tokyu Toyoko Line), and then with the development of Tama Den-en-Toshi (Tama Garden Cities) in once-rural parts of Kawasaki and Yokohama beginning in the 1960s. Of course, a crucial difference between the original garden city concept versus Tokyu’s implementation of it is that Tokyu’s garden suburbs are generally not job centers; while there are plenty of service jobs there, the majority of good-paying professional jobs are located in the city center (such as near Shibuya Station, which conveniently is heavily influenced by Tokyu), hence contributing to Tokyo’s legendary train congestion.
nxobject 2y ago
Not a comment, but a request for clarification: I'm losing the thread of the conversation here: is the choice between free transit and non-free transit? (I think that guess is wrong, which is why I'm asking... "free vs non-free" is a useless dichotomy when there are plenty of ways to charge people fares, some more profit-extracting than other, and when I live in a town with a paid system where homeless people surf in the buses all day because it's the only way to get to the few places to use the bathroom...)

bobthepanda 2y ago

The other important bits to have functioning rail is that * Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase * Japanese commuting is heavily subsidized to the tune of 100,000JPY a month pretax, so consumers have more spending power specifically on transportation. This is at least one of the theorized causes of Japanese economic centralization since you can’t realize the full value of the benefit outside the megacities.

kalleboo 2y ago
> Japanese highways are heavily tolled As an example. For me to get to the nearest large city, it's a 4 hour drive, 7000 yen in highway tolls and around 3000 yen in gas. Or a 2 hour Shinkansen ride for 9000 yen. If you're a solo businessman the choice is a no-brainer. If you're traveling with the family, then you're still gonna drive.
Avicebron 2y ago
> Japanese highways are heavily tolled and parking in choice areas is expensive. In the US parking is mandated at such high levels that it is given away for free; in Japan parking is entirely market provided and you cannot buy a car without proof of a reserved space which you must purchase this is because of the efficacy of public transport working for most of the populous, getting a car isn't the worst thing in the world, but you need to be able to pay for it, show insurance, whatever. Also don't be a foreigner who can't speak Japanese. Basic rules.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  eh, this is the cart before the horse. the US had public frequent transit systems at the turn of the century. the problem was they couldn't compete with brand new free Interstates. It's hard to compete with free.
  - Avicebron 2y ago
    Well for context, outside of an EZ pass, it costed me about 7$ each way to get from Oakland(hills) to Foster City roughly each way, and I had to drive my own car. And for reference, we call them freeways ;) legacy i know.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      I mean, parking in this lot in Chiyoda is 400JPY for 20 minutes. https://www.parkme.com/en-gb/lot/275008/-tokyo-japan https://www.parkme.com/en-gb/lot/275008/-tokyo-japan That's a significantly higher parking rate than I've ever seen charged in the US. And generally in Japan street parking is not permitted in busy areas.
  - linguae 2y ago
    This issue was compounded by the death of streetcar lines across America, being replaced with buses. In Tokyo some of these streetcar lines evolved into subway and train lines. For example, the stretch of the modern Tokyu Den-en-Toshi Line that goes from Shibuya to Futakotamagawa (where Rakuten’s global headquarters are located) replaced the old Tokyu Tamagawa Line, which was a streetcar line. In an alternate universe, Los Angeles’ once-extensive streetcar system, which I believe was operated by private companies (though I could be wrong), could’ve been upgraded to become an extensive train and subway system. I believe the company that built the streetcar connecting Los Angeles with Pasadena also developed real estate along the route to encourage the use of the streetcar. This is exactly Tokyu’s business model; Tokyu played a major role in the development of “garden suburbs” influenced by the garden city movement of the early 1900s: first with the Den-en-Chofu neighborhood of Tokyo in the 1920s (which is served by the Tokyu Toyoko Line), and then with the development of Tama Den-en-Toshi (Tama Garden Cities) in once-rural parts of Kawasaki and Yokohama beginning in the 1960s. Of course, a crucial difference between the original garden city concept versus Tokyu’s implementation of it is that Tokyu’s garden suburbs are generally not job centers; while there are plenty of service jobs there, the majority of good-paying professional jobs are located in the city center (such as near Shibuya Station, which conveniently is heavily influenced by Tokyu), hence contributing to Tokyo’s legendary train congestion.

nxobject 2y ago

Not a comment, but a request for clarification: I'm losing the thread of the conversation here: is the choice between free transit and non-free transit? (I think that guess is wrong, which is why I'm asking... "free vs non-free" is a useless dichotomy when there are plenty of ways to charge people fares, some more profit-extracting than other, and when I live in a town with a paid system where homeless people surf in the buses all day because it's the only way to get to the few places to use the bathroom...)