3 ms·

What if Panama invited China to establish a giant military base on its territory, given that they were unlawfully invaded and occupied by the US just a few deca

What if Panama invited China to establish a giant military base on its territory, given that they were unlawfully invaded and occupied by the US just a few decades ago and presumably have an interest in preventing it from happening again? Do you think the US govt would be cool with that? Why not? Doesn't Panama have a right to choose their own allies, and also discourage a future invasion from the US? Why would the US object to this at all unless they were planning a future unlawful invasion? I'll close with a quote from former CIA director Bill Burns, who tried to talk the Bush administration out of pushing for NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia (this is from 2008): "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests. At this stage, a MAP [Membership Action Plan] offer would be seen not as a technical step along a long road toward membership, but as throwing down the strategic gauntlet. Russia will respond. Russian-Ukrainian relations will go into a deep freeze…. It will create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine."

jiggawatts 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Panama_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Panama_relations "Panama wants to make ties with China" Let's see... the US is preparing for the invasion next -- checks notes -- oh never. They're not planning to invade at all. Huh. Interesting. Interesting... Similarly, China has been "courting" Pacific islands that were previously in the "sphere of influence" of Australia. It's been in the news a lot recently over here. Instead of immediately ramping up military recruitment for an imminent invasion, our government instead sheepishly admitted that it's a bit shameful how we haven't been paying much attention and should be nicer to our neighbours so that they'll ally with us instead. https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/resetting-australia-s-relationship-pacific-three-ideas https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/resetting-aust... Love instead of tanks. Who would have thought such a crazy notion could work!?
ziml77 2y ago
What a bullshit quote. Ukraine didn't join NATO and Russia took Crimea anyway. And now they're attempting to take Ukraine. Russia is only afraid of NATO because they know it will stop them from taking the territory that they want. And it's pretty clear that they're trying to restore the Soviet Union, so they want quite a bit of territory.
mopsi 2y ago
China already has bases much closer than Panama, in another country Russian apologists like to bring up as an example, Cuba. It's such a non-issue that you're not even aware of it. Burns has changed his mind since 2008 and now advocates for greater military support for Ukraine.
- senderista 2y ago
  They're (alleged) intelligence facilities, not military bases. The fact that Burns is hawkish on Ukraine after Putin invaded does not imply that he's changed his mind about what could/should have been done to prevent it.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > They're (alleged) intelligence facilities, not military bases. Ukraine didn't have even that. Prior to the Russia invasion of Ukraine, there were no permanently stationed foreign troops at all east of where they had stood in Europe during the Cold War. Most Cold War era military installations in Western Europe were shut down in the 1990s and no new ones were built anywhere. It's a completely made up grievance. > The fact that Burns is hawkish on Ukraine after Putin invaded does not imply that he's changed his mind about what could/should have been done to prevent it. He has completely abandoned the line of thought from 2008 that centers on tiptoeing around Russia. NATO acted as he advised and didn't offer membership to Ukraine, yet this didn't prevent the war. He now accuses Russians of lying about their intentions, warns of ambitions beyond Ukraine, and says that he underestimated Putin's fixation on Ukraine. Nowhere have I seen any mention of NATO or Ukraine being at fault as suggested by those who bring up that old quote.
racional 2y ago
At this stage, a MAP [Membership Action Plan] offer would be seen not as a technical step along a long road toward membership, but as throwing down the strategic gauntlet. You understand that in fact the MAPs to Ukraine and Georgia were never issued -- and hence, that this "strategic gauntlet" (which according you is what really started the war) was never "thrown" -- right?

jiggawatts 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Panama_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Panama_relations "Panama wants to make ties with China" Let's see... the US is preparing for the invasion next -- checks notes -- oh never. They're not planning to invade at all. Huh. Interesting. Interesting... Similarly, China has been "courting" Pacific islands that were previously in the "sphere of influence" of Australia. It's been in the news a lot recently over here. Instead of immediately ramping up military recruitment for an imminent invasion, our government instead sheepishly admitted that it's a bit shameful how we haven't been paying much attention and should be nicer to our neighbours so that they'll ally with us instead. https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/resetting-australia-s-relationship-pacific-three-ideas https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/resetting-aust... Love instead of tanks. Who would have thought such a crazy notion could work!?

ziml77 2y ago

What a bullshit quote. Ukraine didn't join NATO and Russia took Crimea anyway. And now they're attempting to take Ukraine. Russia is only afraid of NATO because they know it will stop them from taking the territory that they want. And it's pretty clear that they're trying to restore the Soviet Union, so they want quite a bit of territory.

mopsi 2y ago

China already has bases much closer than Panama, in another country Russian apologists like to bring up as an example, Cuba. It's such a non-issue that you're not even aware of it. Burns has changed his mind since 2008 and now advocates for greater military support for Ukraine.

senderista 2y ago
They're (alleged) intelligence facilities, not military bases. The fact that Burns is hawkish on Ukraine after Putin invaded does not imply that he's changed his mind about what could/should have been done to prevent it.
- mopsi 2y ago
  > They're (alleged) intelligence facilities, not military bases. Ukraine didn't have even that. Prior to the Russia invasion of Ukraine, there were no permanently stationed foreign troops at all east of where they had stood in Europe during the Cold War. Most Cold War era military installations in Western Europe were shut down in the 1990s and no new ones were built anywhere. It's a completely made up grievance. > The fact that Burns is hawkish on Ukraine after Putin invaded does not imply that he's changed his mind about what could/should have been done to prevent it. He has completely abandoned the line of thought from 2008 that centers on tiptoeing around Russia. NATO acted as he advised and didn't offer membership to Ukraine, yet this didn't prevent the war. He now accuses Russians of lying about their intentions, warns of ambitions beyond Ukraine, and says that he underestimated Putin's fixation on Ukraine. Nowhere have I seen any mention of NATO or Ukraine being at fault as suggested by those who bring up that old quote.

racional 2y ago

At this stage, a MAP [Membership Action Plan] offer would be seen not as a technical step along a long road toward membership, but as throwing down the strategic gauntlet. You understand that in fact the MAPs to Ukraine and Georgia were never issued -- and hence, that this "strategic gauntlet" (which according you is what really started the war) was never "thrown" -- right?