6 ms·

Framework Laptop 13 Deep Dive: A laptop webcam with smartphone technology

101 points by thenobsta 2y ago

GenerWork 2y ago
Glad to see this update, the original webcam was merely adequate.
- mcluck 2y ago
  I'll go so far as to say that the original camera is pretty terrible. This looks like an excellent upgrade
  - GenerWork 2y ago
    I didn't want to say it, but you're exactly right haha. Colors were WAY off even in a room with enough light.
- lousken 2y ago
  i honestly dont see a big difference between good and bad camera on apps like teams, it's just terrible and the only difference is how terrible it is
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    s/on apps like teams/on teams/ Teams makes every camera stream look like it belongs in the 90s. Slack, Google Meet, Zoom, FaceTime all have quite good image quality.
gdevenyi 2y ago
I'm with an XPS right now and the 4k 13" display it has is wonderful. That's the only thing holding me back from a framework laptop.
- lytedev 2y ago
  I ordered their new display and am very excited about it! 2x scaling and 120Hz are going to be awesome.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    With the addition of the new display the main things holding me back are battery life and fan noise, which are reportedly still issues with the 13”. Both need to a decent step up from my current Linux/Windows laptop before buying one makes any sense.
MostlyStable 2y ago
While I'm personally happy with the current webcam module (although, depending on how much the standby power reduction is, that might be worth it even if I don't care about the quality improvement?), but I'm very happy that we are starting to see more of these upgrades which is a non-trivial part of the framework value proposition.
keyle 2y ago
Do Framework have an ARM offering? Or is it on the cards? I don't see it at first glance, that would peak my interest.
- ollien 2y ago
  No, but a RISC-V partner-made mainboard was just announced.
- Alupis 2y ago
  The road towards ARM is very rough for those who do not control the entire ecosystem around the hardware. Microsoft is on their second attempt, and they have much more sway over their ecosystem than Framework ever will. The magic Apple was able to achieve is almost entirely due to their iron-fisted control over their ecosystem. It's one thing to have a killer chip, but if nobody supports it, it's DOA...
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    > The road towards ARM is very rough for those who do not control the entire ecosystem around the hardware. Isn't that what Framework does? Framework creating an ARM variant with in-tree drivers and bundled with something like tow-boot out of the box would be a huge win for the community. The pinebook pro sucks and is the only real competition in this space unless you count chromebooks. > It's one thing to have a killer chip, but if nobody supports it, it's DOA The beautiful thing about Linux/OSS these days is you can typically assume if you have amd64 support, there's probably a working arm64 port, too.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > Isn't that what Framework does? Framework kinda serves as a glorified systems integrator. They need partners like Intel and AMD to work with them to make sure their chips are suited for the sort of chassis they're making. The recent RISC-V board was almost entirely a third-party offering as far as I can tell. So, I'd argue it's not really what Framework does. Someone like Nvidia, Broadcom or Rockchip would have to provide a particularly compelling chip that fits the form factor and power/thermal envelope, with potentially another middleman designing/integrating the chip into a compatible board. Making, upstreaming and maintaining those in-tree drivers is a commitment of it's own, and you'd have to validate the plethora of expansion cards/peripherals with a device that doesn't have UEFI or probably even PCI. Like the parent said; you'd need a sizable ARM license-holder to commit to the entire vertical process for it to release in a quality state. It's not infeasible that one of them might step up to the plate for this someday, but the incentives would have to line up for them before they'd consider making it a product.
m463 2y ago
"It’s also compatible with all of our existing Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 models, so you can pick it up in the Framework Marketplace and upgrade the laptop you already own" It's nice to see this in a world where the status quo is soldered-in unfixable hardware.
- adastra22 2y ago
  I want hardware interconnect standards to advance so that I can get performance comparable to soldered chips. It’s not (just) planned obsolescence that the companies do this.
39896880 2y ago
What distro are people running with the new 2.8k display? I want to like the Framework (and indeed, any linux laptop) but the compromises are still too many. Poor battery life, lack of fractional scaling support, fan noise, trouble with suspend/hibernate, palm rejection issues, wonky wifi and tinny sound are all things I see on forums.
- ben-schaaf 2y ago
  I'm just running ubuntu 24.04. After following their guide battery life is pretty great, GNOME has fractional scaling under both Wayland and X11, the fans do get loud under full load but not otherwise, it doesn't suspend like older laptops but it does always work, touchpad is great, haven't had wifi issues and the sound isn't too bad. I've seen numerous people complaining about battery life, fractional scaling or sound that just didn't follow the guides. For instance there's a bios setting for linux audio compatibility. Note this is a fw16 without the GPU.
  - colordrops 2y ago
    > it doesn't suspend like older laptops What does this mean
  - 39896880 2y ago
    Would you mind elaborating on: > it doesn't suspend like older laptops but it does always work
    - ben-schaaf 2y ago
      It's using S0 instead of S3 sleep, losing ~1% an hour.
_-_-__-_-_- 2y ago
I've had a Framework 13" Intel 12th Gen for about two years now. It's my personal machine, so it doesn't get a ton of use. It's been quiet as a web surfing and desktop syncing machine. I use it to administer my other computer around the house. I even used it to host a steam game trivia night and some light gaming without issue. I've switched out the hinges and will probably switch mainboards and displays at some point in the future. Does it have battery life like the macbook or those new arm machines? No. Does it have the same performance for RAM as soldered options? Probably not. But if they introduce an LPCAMM2 variant, it will be more competitive.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  I have the same model. Does it have the best performance for your buck ? No Will it end up obsolete and in the trash in a few years unless I find cheap parts on AliExpress to have a laptop that holds together ? Hopefully, no either. Will I be able to upgrade to a more powerful motherboard or more RAM or a better SSD if I find performance is lacking ? or a better screen or longer lasting battery ? I already can.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
A $40 upgrade for existing owners makes this all the sweeter. Would that anyone else making systems have such a sustainable ethos. I wonder how hard it would be to use this for other purposes.
Klaster_1 2y ago
Can you use the module as a regular webcam? The thin stripe on a display bezel would look less intrusive than a regular protruding cam.
- Klaster_1 2y ago
  Emailed Framework, they publish webcam connector specs at Github [0] and promised to do the same for the new modules. Sounds doable if you know your way around electronics. [0] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13/tree/main/Webcam https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13/tre...

101 points by thenobsta 2y ago

GenerWork 2y ago

Glad to see this update, the original webcam was merely adequate.

mcluck 2y ago
I'll go so far as to say that the original camera is pretty terrible. This looks like an excellent upgrade
- GenerWork 2y ago
  I didn't want to say it, but you're exactly right haha. Colors were WAY off even in a room with enough light.
lousken 2y ago
i honestly dont see a big difference between good and bad camera on apps like teams, it's just terrible and the only difference is how terrible it is
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  s/on apps like teams/on teams/ Teams makes every camera stream look like it belongs in the 90s. Slack, Google Meet, Zoom, FaceTime all have quite good image quality.

gdevenyi 2y ago

I'm with an XPS right now and the 4k 13" display it has is wonderful. That's the only thing holding me back from a framework laptop.

lytedev 2y ago
I ordered their new display and am very excited about it! 2x scaling and 120Hz are going to be awesome.
- jwells89 2y ago
  With the addition of the new display the main things holding me back are battery life and fan noise, which are reportedly still issues with the 13”. Both need to a decent step up from my current Linux/Windows laptop before buying one makes any sense.

MostlyStable 2y ago

While I'm personally happy with the current webcam module (although, depending on how much the standby power reduction is, that might be worth it even if I don't care about the quality improvement?), but I'm very happy that we are starting to see more of these upgrades which is a non-trivial part of the framework value proposition.

keyle 2y ago

Do Framework have an ARM offering? Or is it on the cards? I don't see it at first glance, that would peak my interest.

ollien 2y ago
No, but a RISC-V partner-made mainboard was just announced.
Alupis 2y ago
The road towards ARM is very rough for those who do not control the entire ecosystem around the hardware. Microsoft is on their second attempt, and they have much more sway over their ecosystem than Framework ever will. The magic Apple was able to achieve is almost entirely due to their iron-fisted control over their ecosystem. It's one thing to have a killer chip, but if nobody supports it, it's DOA...
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  > The road towards ARM is very rough for those who do not control the entire ecosystem around the hardware. Isn't that what Framework does? Framework creating an ARM variant with in-tree drivers and bundled with something like tow-boot out of the box would be a huge win for the community. The pinebook pro sucks and is the only real competition in this space unless you count chromebooks. > It's one thing to have a killer chip, but if nobody supports it, it's DOA The beautiful thing about Linux/OSS these days is you can typically assume if you have amd64 support, there's probably a working arm64 port, too.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    > Isn't that what Framework does? Framework kinda serves as a glorified systems integrator. They need partners like Intel and AMD to work with them to make sure their chips are suited for the sort of chassis they're making. The recent RISC-V board was almost entirely a third-party offering as far as I can tell. So, I'd argue it's not really what Framework does. Someone like Nvidia, Broadcom or Rockchip would have to provide a particularly compelling chip that fits the form factor and power/thermal envelope, with potentially another middleman designing/integrating the chip into a compatible board. Making, upstreaming and maintaining those in-tree drivers is a commitment of it's own, and you'd have to validate the plethora of expansion cards/peripherals with a device that doesn't have UEFI or probably even PCI. Like the parent said; you'd need a sizable ARM license-holder to commit to the entire vertical process for it to release in a quality state. It's not infeasible that one of them might step up to the plate for this someday, but the incentives would have to line up for them before they'd consider making it a product.

m463 2y ago

"It’s also compatible with all of our existing Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 models, so you can pick it up in the Framework Marketplace and upgrade the laptop you already own" It's nice to see this in a world where the status quo is soldered-in unfixable hardware.

adastra22 2y ago
I want hardware interconnect standards to advance so that I can get performance comparable to soldered chips. It’s not (just) planned obsolescence that the companies do this.

39896880 2y ago

What distro are people running with the new 2.8k display? I want to like the Framework (and indeed, any linux laptop) but the compromises are still too many. Poor battery life, lack of fractional scaling support, fan noise, trouble with suspend/hibernate, palm rejection issues, wonky wifi and tinny sound are all things I see on forums.

ben-schaaf 2y ago
I'm just running ubuntu 24.04. After following their guide battery life is pretty great, GNOME has fractional scaling under both Wayland and X11, the fans do get loud under full load but not otherwise, it doesn't suspend like older laptops but it does always work, touchpad is great, haven't had wifi issues and the sound isn't too bad. I've seen numerous people complaining about battery life, fractional scaling or sound that just didn't follow the guides. For instance there's a bios setting for linux audio compatibility. Note this is a fw16 without the GPU.
- colordrops 2y ago
  > it doesn't suspend like older laptops What does this mean
- 39896880 2y ago
  Would you mind elaborating on: > it doesn't suspend like older laptops but it does always work
  - ben-schaaf 2y ago
    It's using S0 instead of S3 sleep, losing ~1% an hour.

_-_-__-_-_- 2y ago

I've had a Framework 13" Intel 12th Gen for about two years now. It's my personal machine, so it doesn't get a ton of use. It's been quiet as a web surfing and desktop syncing machine. I use it to administer my other computer around the house. I even used it to host a steam game trivia night and some light gaming without issue. I've switched out the hinges and will probably switch mainboards and displays at some point in the future. Does it have battery life like the macbook or those new arm machines? No. Does it have the same performance for RAM as soldered options? Probably not. But if they introduce an LPCAMM2 variant, it will be more competitive.

cassepipe 2y ago
I have the same model. Does it have the best performance for your buck ? No Will it end up obsolete and in the trash in a few years unless I find cheap parts on AliExpress to have a laptop that holds together ? Hopefully, no either. Will I be able to upgrade to a more powerful motherboard or more RAM or a better SSD if I find performance is lacking ? or a better screen or longer lasting battery ? I already can.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

A $40 upgrade for existing owners makes this all the sweeter. Would that anyone else making systems have such a sustainable ethos. I wonder how hard it would be to use this for other purposes.

Klaster_1 2y ago

Can you use the module as a regular webcam? The thin stripe on a display bezel would look less intrusive than a regular protruding cam.

Klaster_1 2y ago
Emailed Framework, they publish webcam connector specs at Github [0] and promised to do the same for the new modules. Sounds doable if you know your way around electronics. [0] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13/tree/main/Webcam https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13/tre...