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Lots of women resent modern feminism to some degree for this very reason. (I am a woman, and have many close female friends who discuss this). Each and every o

Lots of women resent modern feminism to some degree for this very reason. (I am a woman, and have many close female friends who discuss this). Each and every one of us has never had an option not to have a Big Career. At a minimum, we've always had to fend for ourselves financially, and even in solid long term relationships/marriages with successful men, our income is both needed and expected. Meanwhile, the caregiving / household maintenance expectations placed on your average Western woman haven't changed, she just has to do them on top of her day job now. There's a lot of lecturing from "trad" guys online who think everyone should have stay at home wives and lots of kids, but even women who want this type of partnership often can't find men who are willing and able to actually financially support such an arrangement. Every woman I know has spent her whole 20s and 30s seeking wholesome, long term relationships with men who want marriage and kids, at least in an equal and respectful two income home, but they are pretty hard to find. If we can't find a guy in time or we get unlucky (bad breakup/divorce), we're blamed for being "too career oriented" to procreate. No one asks why so few men are serious about marrying us, though. I don't know any women who actually chose their career over having kids, but I do know plenty who figured, 'well, if I have to fend for myself while I look for a guy, I may as well do my best to take care of myself financially.' I know it's hard for men too. But I don't think men realize the heavy implications that the latest waves of feminism have had in terms of what's expected of the modern young woman. And something has broken between the sexes that seems to make it harder than ever to form stable, loving families.

tossandthrow 2y ago
It is interesting to read, and I can sympathize with the views. I think you are right that men don't realize how big the impact of feminism is for women, but I also think it is reasonable as feminism traditionally is about women's rights and usually put men in a position of being the problem (as is also latent in this comment: why don't men clean more, why don't men marry these women). I am completely baffled by the talk about mental load and the expectation that women should clean. I have lived on my own for years and is more than capable of taking care of my own home. I have also been in relationships, where the woman felt this burden. However, she was not able to articulate what needed change. In consequence I have to dismiss that entire element as there is no empirics in my view - only ideas. Which is also in line with what some of my female friends report, at least in their experience: They report that there are some, relatively closed, communities on Instagram and other SoMe where these ideas are circulated and re-enforced without being qualified in this exact instance.
- carbine 2y ago
  Cleaning isn't the issue, and I'm speaking for the women I know here but it generally is more about parenting load than household chores. Feminism is also very difficult to characterize broadly: first and second wave feminism was much more about seeking equality (before the law, in eligibility for education/jobs, in terms of pay for the same work, the right to have a credit card, an equal right to initiate divorce, etc.) Later waves of feminism do often view men differently and perhaps more antagonistically. I and most women I know don't identify with those. But it's easy to conflate the two and ascribe malicious intent to men toward women that isn't there.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    I see, I have yet to become a father, but I have setup dedicated savings that will allow me some years of reduced to no work I plan to use should I become lucky enough to become a parent. In Denmark the parental leave is made largely symmetrical across the parents. I think this change will alleviate what you describe, and I celebrate that. I fully agree on you points on the development of feminism, and as a man, it calms me to hear your reports.
ben_w 2y ago
Thanks for sharing — as you may guess from my username, I can only learn from what people tell me, not direct experience.

tossandthrow 2y ago

It is interesting to read, and I can sympathize with the views. I think you are right that men don't realize how big the impact of feminism is for women, but I also think it is reasonable as feminism traditionally is about women's rights and usually put men in a position of being the problem (as is also latent in this comment: why don't men clean more, why don't men marry these women). I am completely baffled by the talk about mental load and the expectation that women should clean. I have lived on my own for years and is more than capable of taking care of my own home. I have also been in relationships, where the woman felt this burden. However, she was not able to articulate what needed change. In consequence I have to dismiss that entire element as there is no empirics in my view - only ideas. Which is also in line with what some of my female friends report, at least in their experience: They report that there are some, relatively closed, communities on Instagram and other SoMe where these ideas are circulated and re-enforced without being qualified in this exact instance.

carbine 2y ago
Cleaning isn't the issue, and I'm speaking for the women I know here but it generally is more about parenting load than household chores. Feminism is also very difficult to characterize broadly: first and second wave feminism was much more about seeking equality (before the law, in eligibility for education/jobs, in terms of pay for the same work, the right to have a credit card, an equal right to initiate divorce, etc.) Later waves of feminism do often view men differently and perhaps more antagonistically. I and most women I know don't identify with those. But it's easy to conflate the two and ascribe malicious intent to men toward women that isn't there.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  I see, I have yet to become a father, but I have setup dedicated savings that will allow me some years of reduced to no work I plan to use should I become lucky enough to become a parent. In Denmark the parental leave is made largely symmetrical across the parents. I think this change will alleviate what you describe, and I celebrate that. I fully agree on you points on the development of feminism, and as a man, it calms me to hear your reports.

ben_w 2y ago

Thanks for sharing — as you may guess from my username, I can only learn from what people tell me, not direct experience.