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Be nice if the cities had police, and if they had prosecutors willing to put people in jail for property theft.

by tomcam 2y ago

gjsman-1000 2y ago
If I hear “but the underlying causes” or “maybe they’re poor” one more time, so help me… But seriously, this isn’t an either/or game. We can and should fight the underlying causes simultaneously while arresting people, temporarily preventing them from doing further damage. Also, part of life is realizing there are people who commit crime just for the heck of it, who have no interest in reform, and arrive at that lifestyle from a wide array of backgrounds. I still vividly remember when a news station in LA chased a beggar and found they lived in a mansion.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  That beggar must have inherited a lot of wealth because you normally have to commit way more lucrative crimes to own an LA mansion.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  I guess we solid fund the scrap yards taking this material and punish them too, since they enable it. I suggest we jail the execs and managers there for not putting systems in place to prevent paying for stolen materials. I bet this would stop it really quick, and we only have to prosecute a few people rather than every thief, because of supply and demand; reducing demand immensely will make it not worth stealing infrastructure.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    That’s a straw man because it shifts the blame onto the objects, and victims, of the theft rather than the thief. It doesn’t matter what it is, crime is typically opportunistic. Next week, it will be smashing houses to steal jewelry. A month from now, it will be catalytic converters. A year, robbing laptops and getting decryption keys at gunpoint. Who needs to be punished here? The thief. Who needs to change? The thief. Who needs to be taken out of society if they voluntarily choose to not change? The thief.
    - ok_dad 2y ago
      Scrapyards are what we’re talking about here, don’t expand into other arguments needlessly. We’re not talking about jewelry or electronics at the moment. Do you think it’s acceptable to take 300 feet of commercial copper wiring from a random dude and pay him for it without question? Punish the thieves, but also roll them over to testify against the obvious criminality happening in the scrapyards. You’re laying all the blame on the small thieves, but this kind of massive theft requires a supporting demand. Targeting one side is this equation doesn’t work.
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        > Do you think it’s acceptable to take 300 feet of commercial copper wiring from a random dude and pay him for it without question? Well, here’s the problem with that: You’re showing that the scrapyards are acting as though we are living in a high-trust society, and act as though everything was legit. Your proposal is to once again force the scrapyard to change and act like a potential customer is a thief. This is dangerous logic, because consider: - Should computers have mandatory spyware? Many of their users do illegal things, some morally repugnant. - Should stores check your ID at the door, even Walmart? That would surely stop thieves, it’s their own fault if they don’t. My point is that there are no shortages of industries which have criminal customers. Even the company hosting your little web server. I don’t like scrapyards; but I believe that it is the job of police to allow society to function like we can trust each other. If that means the scrapyards are a little trashy; so be it.
        ok_dad 2y ago
        You started with telling me not to straw man, then you did it. What does computer spyware and Walmart have to do with scrapyards? You’re also pre-supposing that scrapyards are innocent victims of those thieves passing off goods as their own, but this scale of theft-to-scrap absolutely requires criminality of both sides of the transaction.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
RRWagner 2y ago
That would be contrary to lower taxes and less government, which many people claim to want.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  The highest tax cities I have been in have the worst police, the worst roads, and the worst trash handling. Police and other basic services are very cheap compared to many of the programs undertaken by high-tax cities.
  - hobs 2y ago
    That very much depends on your city, in some places cops take up more than 20% of city budgets, in some places more than 40% of the city budget is taken up by policing.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      Where I live today, about 40% of the town budget goes to firefighters and police together. I was honestly surprised it was that low. However, it's one of the basic functions of a city and I live in a very low-tax place. I don't think you should generally be upset that police cost a lot of a town's budget, especially if the budget is small. By contrast, I used to live in NYC, which had a budget of over $100 billion, of which about 5% was the police department.
  - swayvil 2y ago
    A small city in southern il. Surrounded by prisons.The new home of choice for recently released prisoners. It's where all cities within 100 miles send their problem homeless. Primary industries: retirement communities, abortion services, care for the mentally disabled and a small university. Worst restaurants. Many trailer parks. Half the population collects welfare. High taxes Unreasonably large police station and train station. Seriously. Huge. It's like they're setting something up. Any other cities like this?
  - threatofrain 2y ago
RRWagner 2y ago
That would be contrary to lower taxes and less government, which many people claim to want.
- vondur 2y ago
  Hmm, I see two examples from Los Angeles California, which isn't known for lower taxes and less government.
pjmorris 2y ago
It'd be nice if people were well-off enough that they didn't have to strip-mine the infrastructure. The economic optimization continues.
- kurthr 2y ago
  It's pretty easy to do a few $k of drugs in a week. Do the calculation. The people buying the "recycled" metal are the ones making bank. Why bother investigating or prosecuting them? Also, this has been going on for decades.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
VoodooJuJu 2y ago
I think it's more important for the cities to be tolerant and inclusive of theft culture. Theft is just part and parcel of living in a large city and diversity makes us stronger.
sneak 2y ago
It costs way more to jail people. Prison isn’t free.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Who cares? The point is we live in a society of laws, not that we choose which laws have teeth because the cost of punishing someone is greater than the cost of the crime.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    > The point is we live in a society of laws I used to believe this, but watching the Trump presidency really shook something loose for me, and now I pretty much believe we live more in a society of "whatever you can get away with" if I was to put my feeling into words. You might think that that means I feel like I can do whatever I want, but it's sort of made me realize how important my own morality is to me and I feel like I'm living the best I have in my lifetime. I guess it didn't have that effect on everyone however.

Be nice if the cities had police, and if they had prosecutors willing to put people in jail for property theft.

by tomcam 2y ago

Be nice if the cities had police, and if they had prosecutors willing to put people in jail for property theft.

If I hear “but the underlying causes” or “maybe they’re poor” one more time, so help me… But seriously, this isn’t an either/or game. We can and should fight the underlying causes simultaneously while arresting people, temporarily preventing them from doing further damage. Also, part of life is realizing there are people who commit crime just for the heck of it, who have no interest in reform, and arrive at that lifestyle from a wide array of backgrounds. I still vividly remember when a news station in LA chased a beggar and found they lived in a mansion.

silverquiet 2y ago
That beggar must have inherited a lot of wealth because you normally have to commit way more lucrative crimes to own an LA mansion.
ok_dad 2y ago
I guess we solid fund the scrap yards taking this material and punish them too, since they enable it. I suggest we jail the execs and managers there for not putting systems in place to prevent paying for stolen materials. I bet this would stop it really quick, and we only have to prosecute a few people rather than every thief, because of supply and demand; reducing demand immensely will make it not worth stealing infrastructure.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  That’s a straw man because it shifts the blame onto the objects, and victims, of the theft rather than the thief. It doesn’t matter what it is, crime is typically opportunistic. Next week, it will be smashing houses to steal jewelry. A month from now, it will be catalytic converters. A year, robbing laptops and getting decryption keys at gunpoint. Who needs to be punished here? The thief. Who needs to change? The thief. Who needs to be taken out of society if they voluntarily choose to not change? The thief.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    Scrapyards are what we’re talking about here, don’t expand into other arguments needlessly. We’re not talking about jewelry or electronics at the moment. Do you think it’s acceptable to take 300 feet of commercial copper wiring from a random dude and pay him for it without question? Punish the thieves, but also roll them over to testify against the obvious criminality happening in the scrapyards. You’re laying all the blame on the small thieves, but this kind of massive theft requires a supporting demand. Targeting one side is this equation doesn’t work.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      > Do you think it’s acceptable to take 300 feet of commercial copper wiring from a random dude and pay him for it without question? Well, here’s the problem with that: You’re showing that the scrapyards are acting as though we are living in a high-trust society, and act as though everything was legit. Your proposal is to once again force the scrapyard to change and act like a potential customer is a thief. This is dangerous logic, because consider: - Should computers have mandatory spyware? Many of their users do illegal things, some morally repugnant. - Should stores check your ID at the door, even Walmart? That would surely stop thieves, it’s their own fault if they don’t. My point is that there are no shortages of industries which have criminal customers. Even the company hosting your little web server. I don’t like scrapyards; but I believe that it is the job of police to allow society to function like we can trust each other. If that means the scrapyards are a little trashy; so be it.
      - ok_dad 2y ago
        You started with telling me not to straw man, then you did it. What does computer spyware and Walmart have to do with scrapyards? You’re also pre-supposing that scrapyards are innocent victims of those thieves passing off goods as their own, but this scale of theft-to-scrap absolutely requires criminality of both sides of the transaction.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

RRWagner 2y ago

That would be contrary to lower taxes and less government, which many people claim to want.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
The highest tax cities I have been in have the worst police, the worst roads, and the worst trash handling. Police and other basic services are very cheap compared to many of the programs undertaken by high-tax cities.
- hobs 2y ago
  That very much depends on your city, in some places cops take up more than 20% of city budgets, in some places more than 40% of the city budget is taken up by policing.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    Where I live today, about 40% of the town budget goes to firefighters and police together. I was honestly surprised it was that low. However, it's one of the basic functions of a city and I live in a very low-tax place. I don't think you should generally be upset that police cost a lot of a town's budget, especially if the budget is small. By contrast, I used to live in NYC, which had a budget of over $100 billion, of which about 5% was the police department.
- swayvil 2y ago
  A small city in southern il. Surrounded by prisons.The new home of choice for recently released prisoners. It's where all cities within 100 miles send their problem homeless. Primary industries: retirement communities, abortion services, care for the mentally disabled and a small university. Worst restaurants. Many trailer parks. Half the population collects welfare. High taxes Unreasonably large police station and train station. Seriously. Huge. It's like they're setting something up. Any other cities like this?
- threatofrain 2y ago

RRWagner 2y ago

That would be contrary to lower taxes and less government, which many people claim to want.

vondur 2y ago
Hmm, I see two examples from Los Angeles California, which isn't known for lower taxes and less government.

pjmorris 2y ago

It'd be nice if people were well-off enough that they didn't have to strip-mine the infrastructure. The economic optimization continues.

kurthr 2y ago
It's pretty easy to do a few $k of drugs in a week. Do the calculation. The people buying the "recycled" metal are the ones making bank. Why bother investigating or prosecuting them? Also, this has been going on for decades.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

VoodooJuJu 2y ago

I think it's more important for the cities to be tolerant and inclusive of theft culture. Theft is just part and parcel of living in a large city and diversity makes us stronger.

sneak 2y ago

It costs way more to jail people. Prison isn’t free.

IncreasePosts 2y ago
Who cares? The point is we live in a society of laws, not that we choose which laws have teeth because the cost of punishing someone is greater than the cost of the crime.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  > The point is we live in a society of laws I used to believe this, but watching the Trump presidency really shook something loose for me, and now I pretty much believe we live more in a society of "whatever you can get away with" if I was to put my feeling into words. You might think that that means I feel like I can do whatever I want, but it's sort of made me realize how important my own morality is to me and I feel like I'm living the best I have in my lifetime. I guess it didn't have that effect on everyone however.