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I'm a Tesla-owning parent whose first child will be receiving their license in a few months. And... this is cute, but I think most of its value is in marketing

by ajross 2y ago

I'm a Tesla-owning parent whose first child will be receiving their license in a few months. And... this is cute, but I think most of its value is in marketing via press hits like this (which push "High Tech Gadget-filled Supercar" narrative). Actual driving safety is a boring and fairly well-understood problem. And if a kid can get in trouble in the family minivan or crossover (and they absolutely can) they can in a settings-crippled Model S too. As far as real policy goes: he'll be driving the 12-year-old minivan primarily for the first year or so. Not because of genuine safety concerns (he's actually a pretty cautious kid) but just because new drivers get in a lot of wrecks and we'd rather that happen in the car that's cheaper to fix and easier to replace.

Taek 2y ago
Every kid is different. In highschool I had plenty of friends that would be way more dangerous (to themselves and others) in a fast car than in a speed limited car. Does that make the car safe? Well, in relative terms, yes it does. Probably 100x less likely to cause fatality for specific kids. Not yours maybe, but a lot of them. Parents usually know if that's their kid or not. There are plenty of signs.
- ajross 2y ago
  > Probably 100x less likely to cause fatality for specific kids. FWIW, that's ridiculous. If a popular car showed a 100x increase in fatalities for some common demographic, that would show up in the data. Sites like HN would be away in "Teen Boy Killer" Tesla articles. It's not. I won't speak to the anecdata, clearly some kids want to drive fast. But speed on regular roads is limited by the roads, not the car. A Corolla or Outback is no less capable of reaching those speeds, its just takes 3-4 seconds longer to do it. That's the kind of delta that, sure, might show up in the data if you look hard (it's a solid hypothesis), but 100x is nonsense.
_mlbt 2y ago
A wreck in the old minivan is financially less expensive, but isn’t the Tesla much safer for your child in the event of an accident? I can replace my car with insurance, but I can’t replace my kid. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
- ajross 2y ago
  Incrementally. EV's with their very low c.g. and high mass are indeed really safe, but frankly so are minivans. If the choice was the Model Y or a 1970's Jeep or whatever, then the calculus might be different. I don't sweat that stuff, it's the same logic that keeps kids in booster seats long after their friends are riding shotgun.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  In a lot of cases adding your child as a primary driver to a very expensive car will significantly increase the cost of the insurance. My brother quadrupled my father's insurance price, for instance, because he was a teenager. Most people can't afford to just eat the increased monthly, so they have to balance the need to have their kid be functional in the real world with the need to make sure their kid is "safe." A lot of older vehicles are still fairly safe in common accidents, as "older" in many cases means driver and passenger airbags, seat belts, crumple zones, and so on. I think the most you can say here is that you can afford to have your kid drive the Tesla. Many people can't. I could make some points about how the NHTSA values occupant safety over the safety of people in other cars but that's a totally different discussion.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  These stats are garbage though, and there have been so many analyses of the statistical and logical flaws in Tesla's reporting that there's no way that it's not at least knowingly misleading, at this point. That being said, Teslas ARE safe vehicles. They are regularly in the top tier for IIHS safety reports. I don't mean to decry that. But that particular page has issues.
itishappy 2y ago
I definitely took my minivan unintentionally off-road once or twice, but I drove a lot more responsibly in it that I would have in a Hellcat because it lacked the performance to do anything else. A Model S is a unique vehicle, it has more than enough power to get you out of a lot of traditionally sticky situations and (in my admittedly limited experience) its drivers know this and drive like it. I guess I'm saying that if I had a kid I'd prefer them to learn the capabilities of a more average car before moving on to a sports car. Habits are a safety feature.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  >it has more than enough power to get you out of a lot of traditionally sticky situations what does this mean? I'm thinking you're saying you can easily flee the police pursuing you but I'm guessing I just misunderstood
  - itishappy 2y ago
    LOL, not what I meant! An example of what I mean is merging next to an 18 wheeler. In most cars including my ol' minivan that takes a somewhat concerted effort. Pick a slot, match speed, communicate intent. A Tesla (or any sports car, really) doesn't need to do any of that. You can just lay on the accelerator because you can reasonably assume that you'll always be able to outmaneuver the other vehicle, and drivers often do. I don't blame them, it's way more fun that way. My argument is that a big part of learning to drive is building understanding and empathy for the other inhabitants of the road, and sports cars don't do a good job of this.
SkyPuncher 2y ago
I actually strongly disagree. My first accident occurred because I accidentally spun the wheels on a rainy night while trying to get to highways speeds. This was an SUV we used for towing. Rear wheel drive with lots of power. I wasn’t messing around or driving recklessly, I just put too much power in poor conditions and I downshift broke the tires free. Since either was rear wheel drive, we fish tailed into the ditch. It would have been nearly impossible for me to do that in a minivan. Even if I could have gotten enough power out, the front wheels would have broken loose in a much more predictable and recoverable manner.

by ajross 2y ago

Taek 2y ago

Every kid is different. In highschool I had plenty of friends that would be way more dangerous (to themselves and others) in a fast car than in a speed limited car. Does that make the car safe? Well, in relative terms, yes it does. Probably 100x less likely to cause fatality for specific kids. Not yours maybe, but a lot of them. Parents usually know if that's their kid or not. There are plenty of signs.

ajross 2y ago
> Probably 100x less likely to cause fatality for specific kids. FWIW, that's ridiculous. If a popular car showed a 100x increase in fatalities for some common demographic, that would show up in the data. Sites like HN would be away in "Teen Boy Killer" Tesla articles. It's not. I won't speak to the anecdata, clearly some kids want to drive fast. But speed on regular roads is limited by the roads, not the car. A Corolla or Outback is no less capable of reaching those speeds, its just takes 3-4 seconds longer to do it. That's the kind of delta that, sure, might show up in the data if you look hard (it's a solid hypothesis), but 100x is nonsense.

_mlbt 2y ago

A wreck in the old minivan is financially less expensive, but isn’t the Tesla much safer for your child in the event of an accident? I can replace my car with insurance, but I can’t replace my kid. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

ajross 2y ago
Incrementally. EV's with their very low c.g. and high mass are indeed really safe, but frankly so are minivans. If the choice was the Model Y or a 1970's Jeep or whatever, then the calculus might be different. I don't sweat that stuff, it's the same logic that keeps kids in booster seats long after their friends are riding shotgun.
throwway120385 2y ago
In a lot of cases adding your child as a primary driver to a very expensive car will significantly increase the cost of the insurance. My brother quadrupled my father's insurance price, for instance, because he was a teenager. Most people can't afford to just eat the increased monthly, so they have to balance the need to have their kid be functional in the real world with the need to make sure their kid is "safe." A lot of older vehicles are still fairly safe in common accidents, as "older" in many cases means driver and passenger airbags, seat belts, crumple zones, and so on. I think the most you can say here is that you can afford to have your kid drive the Tesla. Many people can't. I could make some points about how the NHTSA values occupant safety over the safety of people in other cars but that's a totally different discussion.
FireBeyond 2y ago
These stats are garbage though, and there have been so many analyses of the statistical and logical flaws in Tesla's reporting that there's no way that it's not at least knowingly misleading, at this point. That being said, Teslas ARE safe vehicles. They are regularly in the top tier for IIHS safety reports. I don't mean to decry that. But that particular page has issues.

itishappy 2y ago

I definitely took my minivan unintentionally off-road once or twice, but I drove a lot more responsibly in it that I would have in a Hellcat because it lacked the performance to do anything else. A Model S is a unique vehicle, it has more than enough power to get you out of a lot of traditionally sticky situations and (in my admittedly limited experience) its drivers know this and drive like it. I guess I'm saying that if I had a kid I'd prefer them to learn the capabilities of a more average car before moving on to a sports car. Habits are a safety feature.

snapcaster 2y ago
>it has more than enough power to get you out of a lot of traditionally sticky situations what does this mean? I'm thinking you're saying you can easily flee the police pursuing you but I'm guessing I just misunderstood
- itishappy 2y ago
  LOL, not what I meant! An example of what I mean is merging next to an 18 wheeler. In most cars including my ol' minivan that takes a somewhat concerted effort. Pick a slot, match speed, communicate intent. A Tesla (or any sports car, really) doesn't need to do any of that. You can just lay on the accelerator because you can reasonably assume that you'll always be able to outmaneuver the other vehicle, and drivers often do. I don't blame them, it's way more fun that way. My argument is that a big part of learning to drive is building understanding and empathy for the other inhabitants of the road, and sports cars don't do a good job of this.

SkyPuncher 2y ago

I actually strongly disagree. My first accident occurred because I accidentally spun the wheels on a rainy night while trying to get to highways speeds. This was an SUV we used for towing. Rear wheel drive with lots of power. I wasn’t messing around or driving recklessly, I just put too much power in poor conditions and I downshift broke the tires free. Since either was rear wheel drive, we fish tailed into the ditch. It would have been nearly impossible for me to do that in a minivan. Even if I could have gotten enough power out, the front wheels would have broken loose in a much more predictable and recoverable manner.