4 ms·

Considering retail for the OS is $199 I find it insane the way Microsoft is pushing such a dystopian freemium model on their users. When you buy a new computer

Considering retail for the OS is $199 I find it insane the way Microsoft is pushing such a dystopian freemium model on their users. When you buy a new computer with Windows, the manufacturer pays Microsoft for that license too (obj not the same cost as a retail one, but a cost nonetheless) Meanwhile essentially every version of macOS is free (gotta go back a few years to find retail upgrade copies, which are still far less expensive than Windows and never contain advertisements)

AlexandrB 2y ago
macOS being free is sleight of hand. The cost is just baked into the margin on their hardware. Maybe if you could run macOS on hardware of your choice (i.e. "hackintosh") it would be an apples-to-apples comparison.
- giantrobot 2y ago
  > The cost is just baked into the margin on their hardware. Oh no! Wait, why is this somehow a concern? You buy a Mac and get an OS with years worth of free updates to that OS and additional years of security updates to the OS. Where's the problem?
  - nightski 2y ago
    There's no problem. It's just the same model as Microsoft with the only difference that Microsoft works with an ecosystem of hardware manufacturers vs. being the sole one.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    If I buy a laptop from Dell the cost of Windows is also baked into their margin. And you equally get years worth of free updates. The point is that "MacOS is free, Windows costs money" is a bad comparison both from the end-user PoV and the actual economics of what's happening.
- segasaturn 2y ago
  GNU/Linux is Free as in Freedom, Windows is free as in free beer, MacOS is free as in free airplane pretzels.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    Except that Windows and macOS aren't $0 free, they just get included with hardware so people don't see the cost.
  - vdnkh 2y ago
    This comparison has never made sense to me. If I get a free beer, I can do whatever I want with it. Drink it, dump it, whatever. Same thing with pretzels. Am I missing something?
    - AndrewOMartin 2y ago
      Yes
    - dgrin91 2y ago
      To get free _airplane_ pretzels you need to first be on an airplane, which means you need to buy an airplane ticket, which costs hundreds. Similar with free beer. You need to do _something_ to get the free beer. It will probably cost less than the airline ticket, but it will still cost.
hecanjog 2y ago
MacOS does show advertisements for the iCloud services.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  I think… in settings? Once below Apple ID, if you’re not signed in, and once by iCloud. There also are AppleID and iCloud direct integrations, which can be thought of as advertisements. And if you are using iCloud and there’s not enough space, you’ll see a banner on every app that uses iCloud (except Finder) that hey, there’s not enough space. I think this is an advertisement, but it’s for a service people might actually want, that doesn’t necessarily cost money, and only asks for money when needed for functionality. It’s also a first-party ad.
  - w0m 2y ago
    > but it’s for a service people might actually want copium
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    > I think this is an advertisement, but it’s for a service people might actually want I don't think that's what makes Apple's in-OS ads acceptable. Whether somebody "actually wants" iCould or whatever, is dependent on that person. What makes Apple's in-OS ads acceptable are that they are for Apple services that are totally in-context to where you are in the OS: an "ad" for iCloud appears in the Settings dialog hierarchy where iCloud settings would normally be. Also, they are really subtle and hard to notice, tastefully integrated with the OS/color scheme. Unlike Microsoft's ham-fisted ads that are in your face, thrown into the Start menu without any context, for services that have nothing to do with what you're doing, and design-wise garish and tacky: I'm in the middle of launching a text editor, and Microsoft shouts "BUY CANDY CRUSH LOLOLOLOL" with a blinding ad. Big difference.
    - dole 2y ago
      The problem is that difference is shrinking. Compare the ad creep between Windows 7 and 11. Now, compare Apple's first party ads between iPhone 5 vs the current iOS (not familiar enough w MacOS). Apple Music's full screen modal ads suck but I guess it's better than forcing a U2 album on us. And the iCloud ads to upgrade your space may be "subtle and integrated with the colors and less garish," but they're not just in the Settings. I'm getting iCloud reminder emails and Notifications multiple times a day, it's not much better. MS's are more ham-fisted and garish, sure, but the sad thing is watching the enshittification of iOS and society's expectations also.
wongarsu 2y ago
> Meanwhile essentially every version of macOS is free If that was true I could download a macOS version to run in my VM. Rather macOS is unavailable, the only way to get a valid license is to buy a machine running MacOS. Which isn't that different from buying a Windows PC. The only reason no money changes hands from OEM to Apple is that Apple makes both the OS and the hardware, and they don't have a reason to pay money to themselves. Windows upgrades used to be a big thing, but have been effectively free for the last 8 years.
- tsujamin 2y ago
  You can virtualise macOS (in Fusion) from the installer from the App Store, which is just a .app you can get anyone to download
dist-epoch 2y ago
In Europe there is no reason to pay $199. You can buy a second hand Windows 11 Pro license for $10. Office Pro for $25. Despite what many will say, it's completely legal, EU highest court ruled that companies can't forbid the transfer/re-sale of legitimately owned software licenses.
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  > Office Pro for $25 Really? I’ve seen OEM Windows licenses for about €15 on a German website (IIRC the practice of selling them was specifically declared legal in Germany), but Office went for €50 there.
  - inversetelecine 2y ago
    Not in EU, but I've bought from keysfan and godeal24 a few times and was always satisfied. I would never use it for a business, but for home use it's been just fine.
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    You got to search a bit more, look outside Germany too. It's legal in all of EU.
- moi2388 2y ago
  I have never received a single code from any reseller that wasn’t being sold to multiple people, resulting in blocks.
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    You don't know how to pick the resellers than. All the legitimate ones guarantee that the license will work and they will replace it for free if you have any problems with it. There are big online computer shops which also resell licenses. They have names, addresses, thousands of customers. If you have a problem with a second-hand license bought there you can make a consumer complaint to the authorities.
steve1977 2y ago
I believe $199 would be for Windows 10/11 Pro, not Home. Which a) you probably don't need and b) actually has better options to get rid of ads etc. The retail price here for Windows 10/11 Home is around $110. Mac OS X Tiger for example was also around $129 (but yes, this was a long time ago). Then ago, you obviously already pay premium for the Apple hardware. And maybe also sign up for their services.
- callalex 2y ago
  You need a pro version in order to be allowed to sign into your own computer with your own user and not involving the internet.

AlexandrB 2y ago

macOS being free is sleight of hand. The cost is just baked into the margin on their hardware. Maybe if you could run macOS on hardware of your choice (i.e. "hackintosh") it would be an apples-to-apples comparison.

giantrobot 2y ago
> The cost is just baked into the margin on their hardware. Oh no! Wait, why is this somehow a concern? You buy a Mac and get an OS with years worth of free updates to that OS and additional years of security updates to the OS. Where's the problem?
- nightski 2y ago
  There's no problem. It's just the same model as Microsoft with the only difference that Microsoft works with an ecosystem of hardware manufacturers vs. being the sole one.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  If I buy a laptop from Dell the cost of Windows is also baked into their margin. And you equally get years worth of free updates. The point is that "MacOS is free, Windows costs money" is a bad comparison both from the end-user PoV and the actual economics of what's happening.
segasaturn 2y ago
GNU/Linux is Free as in Freedom, Windows is free as in free beer, MacOS is free as in free airplane pretzels.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Except that Windows and macOS aren't $0 free, they just get included with hardware so people don't see the cost.
- vdnkh 2y ago
  This comparison has never made sense to me. If I get a free beer, I can do whatever I want with it. Drink it, dump it, whatever. Same thing with pretzels. Am I missing something?
  - AndrewOMartin 2y ago
    Yes
  - dgrin91 2y ago
    To get free _airplane_ pretzels you need to first be on an airplane, which means you need to buy an airplane ticket, which costs hundreds. Similar with free beer. You need to do _something_ to get the free beer. It will probably cost less than the airline ticket, but it will still cost.

hecanjog 2y ago

MacOS does show advertisements for the iCloud services.

freeone3000 2y ago
I think… in settings? Once below Apple ID, if you’re not signed in, and once by iCloud. There also are AppleID and iCloud direct integrations, which can be thought of as advertisements. And if you are using iCloud and there’s not enough space, you’ll see a banner on every app that uses iCloud (except Finder) that hey, there’s not enough space. I think this is an advertisement, but it’s for a service people might actually want, that doesn’t necessarily cost money, and only asks for money when needed for functionality. It’s also a first-party ad.
- w0m 2y ago
  > but it’s for a service people might actually want copium
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > I think this is an advertisement, but it’s for a service people might actually want I don't think that's what makes Apple's in-OS ads acceptable. Whether somebody "actually wants" iCould or whatever, is dependent on that person. What makes Apple's in-OS ads acceptable are that they are for Apple services that are totally in-context to where you are in the OS: an "ad" for iCloud appears in the Settings dialog hierarchy where iCloud settings would normally be. Also, they are really subtle and hard to notice, tastefully integrated with the OS/color scheme. Unlike Microsoft's ham-fisted ads that are in your face, thrown into the Start menu without any context, for services that have nothing to do with what you're doing, and design-wise garish and tacky: I'm in the middle of launching a text editor, and Microsoft shouts "BUY CANDY CRUSH LOLOLOLOL" with a blinding ad. Big difference.
  - dole 2y ago
    The problem is that difference is shrinking. Compare the ad creep between Windows 7 and 11. Now, compare Apple's first party ads between iPhone 5 vs the current iOS (not familiar enough w MacOS). Apple Music's full screen modal ads suck but I guess it's better than forcing a U2 album on us. And the iCloud ads to upgrade your space may be "subtle and integrated with the colors and less garish," but they're not just in the Settings. I'm getting iCloud reminder emails and Notifications multiple times a day, it's not much better. MS's are more ham-fisted and garish, sure, but the sad thing is watching the enshittification of iOS and society's expectations also.

wongarsu 2y ago

> Meanwhile essentially every version of macOS is free If that was true I could download a macOS version to run in my VM. Rather macOS is unavailable, the only way to get a valid license is to buy a machine running MacOS. Which isn't that different from buying a Windows PC. The only reason no money changes hands from OEM to Apple is that Apple makes both the OS and the hardware, and they don't have a reason to pay money to themselves. Windows upgrades used to be a big thing, but have been effectively free for the last 8 years.

tsujamin 2y ago
You can virtualise macOS (in Fusion) from the installer from the App Store, which is just a .app you can get anyone to download

dist-epoch 2y ago

In Europe there is no reason to pay $199. You can buy a second hand Windows 11 Pro license for $10. Office Pro for $25. Despite what many will say, it's completely legal, EU highest court ruled that companies can't forbid the transfer/re-sale of legitimately owned software licenses.

mananaysiempre 2y ago
> Office Pro for $25 Really? I’ve seen OEM Windows licenses for about €15 on a German website (IIRC the practice of selling them was specifically declared legal in Germany), but Office went for €50 there.
- inversetelecine 2y ago
  Not in EU, but I've bought from keysfan and godeal24 a few times and was always satisfied. I would never use it for a business, but for home use it's been just fine.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  You got to search a bit more, look outside Germany too. It's legal in all of EU.
moi2388 2y ago
I have never received a single code from any reseller that wasn’t being sold to multiple people, resulting in blocks.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  You don't know how to pick the resellers than. All the legitimate ones guarantee that the license will work and they will replace it for free if you have any problems with it. There are big online computer shops which also resell licenses. They have names, addresses, thousands of customers. If you have a problem with a second-hand license bought there you can make a consumer complaint to the authorities.

steve1977 2y ago

I believe $199 would be for Windows 10/11 Pro, not Home. Which a) you probably don't need and b) actually has better options to get rid of ads etc. The retail price here for Windows 10/11 Home is around $110. Mac OS X Tiger for example was also around $129 (but yes, this was a long time ago). Then ago, you obviously already pay premium for the Apple hardware. And maybe also sign up for their services.

callalex 2y ago
You need a pro version in order to be allowed to sign into your own computer with your own user and not involving the internet.