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The Business Source License allows for redistribution and modification of code. Calling it not open-source because it restricts third-parties from slapping a lo

The Business Source License allows for redistribution and modification of code. Calling it not open-source because it restricts third-parties from slapping a logo on it and selling licenses seems like a stretch. imo licenses like the BSL are really the direction that open-source should be heading in, because they allow the original author to retain their rights while avoiding exploitation by rando corporations.

KolmogorovComp 2y ago
No, it’s not an open-source license because it’s not OSI compliant https://opensource.org/licenses https://opensource.org/licenses. Open-source has a specific meaning that too many people don’t know or forgot.
- evantbyrne 2y ago
  This feels like splitting hairs and unnecessary gatekeeping, and I'm not sure for what purpose or for who's intended benefit. The movement needs to evolve to better protect the rights of the people actually doing the work, because they are the ones who are benefiting the least by the narrow definition being pushed by the OSI. Maybe we need a new term if this is how "open-source" is seen in the broader community.
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    The term is "source available," but I guess with that, companies can't use "open source" as a marketing term then pull the rug after they got enough contributions, like so many that converted to BSL and others now. By creating rights for those companies such that they cannot be competed with, you actually remove the rights of users, which is the whole reason the open source and free software movements got started in the first place. They are and always have been about the rights of users, not of corporations.
    - evantbyrne 2y ago
      What are you talking about? I don't know where you live or what project you are referring to, but it's not possible to retroactively remove someone's rights in the American legal system by publishing a new license. If you committed code under a MIT license without signing anything else, you don't lose anything when later versions are published under BSL, AGPL, or whatever. The fact that the MIT license arguably allows willy nilly relicensing by anyone should be seen as a flaw with that license, not BSL. Also the context of this conversation is what license is appropriate for a new project. It makes less sense to apply a BSL to a MIT licensed project that has been around for a while than it does to start off with a BSL.
      - satvikpendem 2y ago
        I'm not even sure how what you're saying relates to what I said; of course no license can be retroactively changed and I never said anything to the contrary. By rug pull, I mean companies like Sentry or MongoDB starting off as open source then changing their license such that they are no longer open source, making it a much more difficult legal minefield for whomever uses their product, even if they aren't competing with them, as they are now source available companies. As a copyright holder, any license can be changed for the future, whether it be MIT, AGPL, or BSL. With regards to a new project, sure, they can license it however they want but if it's not open source, they should expect to get way fewer contributions than if it were.
        evantbyrne 2y ago
        Well that's certainly disappointing but not really a rug pull so much as just what eventually happens with every project, which is that at some point the original authors stop contributing to the original vision. Both of the mentioned projects also don't use BSL, which I feel it is worth reiterating is still a very permissive license. If you aren't planning on selling licenses to the project you are contributing to, then a BSL isn't going to meaningfully restrict you. Sure, fewer contributions is a theoretical concern, but fully permissive licenses also suffer from contributions not looping back into the original project. Or if you use something in the GPL family there are other implications. I've been reading a lot about licensing lately and there don't seem to be any obvious choices for authors who care about how their work is used. I'm gravitating towards BSL though because it is relatively simple and feels like it retains the most important aspects of open source, which are redistribution and modification.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > This feels like splitting hairs and unnecessary gatekeeping, and I'm not sure for what purpose or for who's intended benefit. The line must be drawn. Open-source absolutely needs to have a firm definition, otherwise it will be whittled away to nothing. Microsoft already tried that with "shared source". If you think the difference between BSL and AGPL is just splitting hairs, then why not just use the AGPL?
    - evantbyrne 2y ago
      There is less of a difference between BSL and MIT than between any GPL license, as I'm sure you are aware. If I'm giving away software including source in the open, for free, while allowing redistribution and modification, then I'm not sure how to convey that without offending patrons of the OSI and FSF. Not feeling like walking around on eggshells to give things away that's for certain.
      - lmm 2y ago
        > There is less of a difference between BSL and MIT than between any GPL license, as I'm sure you are aware. Nonsense. There is an enormous difference between the MIT license, which grants you permission to use and sublicense something without any restrictions, and the BSL, which does not. > If I'm giving away software including source in the open, for free, while allowing redistribution and modification, then I'm not sure how to convey that without offending patrons of the OSI and FSF. If you put limitations on how that software is used, then no, you're not giving it away. That part is something the OSI and FSF have been very clear about for decades - see e.g. the FSF's "four freedoms", which are about as clear and simple as you can get. Even silly "camel's nose" limitations count, and have to count, otherwise there is no place to draw the line; see the OSI and FSF's comments on the HESSLA or the (pre-2021) JSLint license. Again this is something they've been clear about for decades. > Not feeling like walking around on eggshells to give things away that's for certain. If you want to give things away for free then do so. If you want to pull a Columbia Record Club "it's free, no wait you have to pay us" scam then of course people aren't going to support that.
        2y ago

KolmogorovComp 2y ago

No, it’s not an open-source license because it’s not OSI compliant https://opensource.org/licenses https://opensource.org/licenses. Open-source has a specific meaning that too many people don’t know or forgot.

evantbyrne 2y ago
This feels like splitting hairs and unnecessary gatekeeping, and I'm not sure for what purpose or for who's intended benefit. The movement needs to evolve to better protect the rights of the people actually doing the work, because they are the ones who are benefiting the least by the narrow definition being pushed by the OSI. Maybe we need a new term if this is how "open-source" is seen in the broader community.
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  The term is "source available," but I guess with that, companies can't use "open source" as a marketing term then pull the rug after they got enough contributions, like so many that converted to BSL and others now. By creating rights for those companies such that they cannot be competed with, you actually remove the rights of users, which is the whole reason the open source and free software movements got started in the first place. They are and always have been about the rights of users, not of corporations.
  - evantbyrne 2y ago
    What are you talking about? I don't know where you live or what project you are referring to, but it's not possible to retroactively remove someone's rights in the American legal system by publishing a new license. If you committed code under a MIT license without signing anything else, you don't lose anything when later versions are published under BSL, AGPL, or whatever. The fact that the MIT license arguably allows willy nilly relicensing by anyone should be seen as a flaw with that license, not BSL. Also the context of this conversation is what license is appropriate for a new project. It makes less sense to apply a BSL to a MIT licensed project that has been around for a while than it does to start off with a BSL.
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      I'm not even sure how what you're saying relates to what I said; of course no license can be retroactively changed and I never said anything to the contrary. By rug pull, I mean companies like Sentry or MongoDB starting off as open source then changing their license such that they are no longer open source, making it a much more difficult legal minefield for whomever uses their product, even if they aren't competing with them, as they are now source available companies. As a copyright holder, any license can be changed for the future, whether it be MIT, AGPL, or BSL. With regards to a new project, sure, they can license it however they want but if it's not open source, they should expect to get way fewer contributions than if it were.
      - evantbyrne 2y ago
        Well that's certainly disappointing but not really a rug pull so much as just what eventually happens with every project, which is that at some point the original authors stop contributing to the original vision. Both of the mentioned projects also don't use BSL, which I feel it is worth reiterating is still a very permissive license. If you aren't planning on selling licenses to the project you are contributing to, then a BSL isn't going to meaningfully restrict you. Sure, fewer contributions is a theoretical concern, but fully permissive licenses also suffer from contributions not looping back into the original project. Or if you use something in the GPL family there are other implications. I've been reading a lot about licensing lately and there don't seem to be any obvious choices for authors who care about how their work is used. I'm gravitating towards BSL though because it is relatively simple and feels like it retains the most important aspects of open source, which are redistribution and modification.
- lmm 2y ago
  > This feels like splitting hairs and unnecessary gatekeeping, and I'm not sure for what purpose or for who's intended benefit. The line must be drawn. Open-source absolutely needs to have a firm definition, otherwise it will be whittled away to nothing. Microsoft already tried that with "shared source". If you think the difference between BSL and AGPL is just splitting hairs, then why not just use the AGPL?
  - evantbyrne 2y ago
    There is less of a difference between BSL and MIT than between any GPL license, as I'm sure you are aware. If I'm giving away software including source in the open, for free, while allowing redistribution and modification, then I'm not sure how to convey that without offending patrons of the OSI and FSF. Not feeling like walking around on eggshells to give things away that's for certain.
    - lmm 2y ago
      > There is less of a difference between BSL and MIT than between any GPL license, as I'm sure you are aware. Nonsense. There is an enormous difference between the MIT license, which grants you permission to use and sublicense something without any restrictions, and the BSL, which does not. > If I'm giving away software including source in the open, for free, while allowing redistribution and modification, then I'm not sure how to convey that without offending patrons of the OSI and FSF. If you put limitations on how that software is used, then no, you're not giving it away. That part is something the OSI and FSF have been very clear about for decades - see e.g. the FSF's "four freedoms", which are about as clear and simple as you can get. Even silly "camel's nose" limitations count, and have to count, otherwise there is no place to draw the line; see the OSI and FSF's comments on the HESSLA or the (pre-2021) JSLint license. Again this is something they've been clear about for decades. > Not feeling like walking around on eggshells to give things away that's for certain. If you want to give things away for free then do so. If you want to pull a Columbia Record Club "it's free, no wait you have to pay us" scam then of course people aren't going to support that.
      - 2y ago