4 ms·

When we look at Apples desktop ARM PCs they are at least not bad compared to x86

jsheard 2y ago
The crucial difference being that Apples developer ecosystem is accustomed to jumping through whatever hoops Apple demands when they deprecate something, while Microsoft has built their brand on keeping Windows software working forever if at all possible. There's ups and downs to both approaches, but for an ISA transition the Apple way of dictating that everyone will switch or get left behind is obviously a huge advantage. Apple is so aggressive about deprecation that it wouldn't be surprising if they remove Rosetta 2 within in a few years and kill any software which didn't get updated to ARM, just like they killed 32bit Intel software, and PPC software before that. Microsoft is never going to be able to do that.
guappa 2y ago
The amount of shilling for apple that happens online is so massive that I'd want to try a machine in person before deciding if to buy it or not, because I can't trust anything that I read online. edit: the downvotes are kinda proving my point.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  I quite despise Apple but... you can. I think every Apple store that I have seen or been in has display models that you can just walk up to and start doing stuff on. Even non-Apple stores that sell Apple devices like BestBuy or Walmart tend to have display devices you can try out.
  - mmaniac 2y ago
    Much of the stuff which Mac users brag about, like long battery life or efficiency under heavy workloads, is stuff that you can't easily test with a display model. You need to make it your daily driver for a week to get the whole picture.
    - Zambyte 2y ago
      Fair point
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Right. I just pictured myself walking into an Apple store, unplugging the machine so I can see the battery effects, setting up my dev environment, and building the linux kernel or something on it to see how it performs. It's legitimately what I would want to do to test it, but I'm willing to bet the employees don't let me get that far before they stop me...
      - tmottabr 2y ago
        if you need to compile linux kernel on the go often then i would advise you to have an always on workstation\server that you use to do the heavy lifting that you then just access remotely form the macbook.. doing heavy compiling work on any device will eat away your battery faster then when you do general use.. but even then, with that workflow while macbook might not give you the many hours of battery that apple brag about, it will still give you more time on battery then then most devices..
        mmaniac 2y ago
        If you log into a workstation to do all your work, a Chromebook will suffice.
        tmottabr 2y ago
        you don't necessary need to be logged to a workstation to do all your work.. You could develop de code locally in your macbook in a nice interface, when you are ready to compile then you push the code to a remote git repo in your workstation that also would trigger the compile job, tests, etc.. Do the CPU light work locally and the CPU intense jobs remotely in a system that can have more powerful CPU proper to the task while also freeing your laptop from the burden this CPU intensive job that will make it hot and burn trough the battery.. but yeah, this workflow could work in whatever laptop\os you want, from a chromebook to a macbook..
- afavour 2y ago
  Sometimes things are just objectively good. I have many, many complaints about Apple but their hardware, laptops in particular, are first in class. edit: c'mon, don't complain about downvotes. You're getting downvoted because you're not offering a useful contribution, not because everyone in the world is an Apple fanboy.
  - guappa 2y ago
    The last time I trusted people telling me macbooks were objectively good I found out that the meaning of "objective" is very subjective.
    - afavour 2y ago
      You seem very determined for MacBooks to be bad. You're allowed to hold that opinion. Different people have different requirements from their hardware and I can believe that a MacBook isn't a good fit for everyone. But IMO when assessed as a general purpose machine the MacBook is objectively the best device available. (you can certainly debate value for money, though)
      - guappa 2y ago
        > But IMO when assessed as a general purpose machine the MacBook is objectively the best device available. I don't doubt that it is subjectively for you personally the best device available. As I said, I haven't tried the new ones. But clearly I can't trust people like you who claim objectivity where there is none.
        tmottabr 2y ago
        do not mix specific needs with general needs.. Macbook is objectively one of the best general purpose devices out there.. and there is a lot of data and reviews out there to confirm.. But if you have specific needs, and that seems to be your case, then you need to test if your workflow will work fine on MacOS\Macbook, but then that will also be true for any OS or device.. Mac can be great for many specific use cases, video editing, photo editing are some examples.. For development it can go both ways, it could be great or terrible depending on many factors..
- Kye 2y ago
  There are people whose opinions I trust who like them, so I don't doubt they work well. The big complaints are the obscene prices for memory and storage. People buy what they can afford, and it's a fraction of the memory and space on an equivalent Windows system using the same chips from the same factories. And often what they can afford in Apple's world isn't enough. There's no excuse other than greed.
creshal 2y ago
Apple is a poor comparison since they switched when Intel's offerings had been uncompetitive compared to AMD's for several years. The last gen of x86 Macs was also in many ways the worst.

The crucial difference being that Apples developer ecosystem is accustomed to jumping through whatever hoops Apple demands when they deprecate something, while Microsoft has built their brand on keeping Windows software working forever if at all possible. There's ups and downs to both approaches, but for an ISA transition the Apple way of dictating that everyone will switch or get left behind is obviously a huge advantage. Apple is so aggressive about deprecation that it wouldn't be surprising if they remove Rosetta 2 within in a few years and kill any software which didn't get updated to ARM, just like they killed 32bit Intel software, and PPC software before that. Microsoft is never going to be able to do that.

guappa 2y ago

The amount of shilling for apple that happens online is so massive that I'd want to try a machine in person before deciding if to buy it or not, because I can't trust anything that I read online. edit: the downvotes are kinda proving my point.

Zambyte 2y ago
I quite despise Apple but... you can. I think every Apple store that I have seen or been in has display models that you can just walk up to and start doing stuff on. Even non-Apple stores that sell Apple devices like BestBuy or Walmart tend to have display devices you can try out.
- mmaniac 2y ago
  Much of the stuff which Mac users brag about, like long battery life or efficiency under heavy workloads, is stuff that you can't easily test with a display model. You need to make it your daily driver for a week to get the whole picture.
  - Zambyte 2y ago
    Fair point
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Right. I just pictured myself walking into an Apple store, unplugging the machine so I can see the battery effects, setting up my dev environment, and building the linux kernel or something on it to see how it performs. It's legitimately what I would want to do to test it, but I'm willing to bet the employees don't let me get that far before they stop me...
    - tmottabr 2y ago
      if you need to compile linux kernel on the go often then i would advise you to have an always on workstation\server that you use to do the heavy lifting that you then just access remotely form the macbook.. doing heavy compiling work on any device will eat away your battery faster then when you do general use.. but even then, with that workflow while macbook might not give you the many hours of battery that apple brag about, it will still give you more time on battery then then most devices..
      - mmaniac 2y ago
        If you log into a workstation to do all your work, a Chromebook will suffice.
        tmottabr 2y ago
        you don't necessary need to be logged to a workstation to do all your work.. You could develop de code locally in your macbook in a nice interface, when you are ready to compile then you push the code to a remote git repo in your workstation that also would trigger the compile job, tests, etc.. Do the CPU light work locally and the CPU intense jobs remotely in a system that can have more powerful CPU proper to the task while also freeing your laptop from the burden this CPU intensive job that will make it hot and burn trough the battery.. but yeah, this workflow could work in whatever laptop\os you want, from a chromebook to a macbook..
afavour 2y ago
Sometimes things are just objectively good. I have many, many complaints about Apple but their hardware, laptops in particular, are first in class. edit: c'mon, don't complain about downvotes. You're getting downvoted because you're not offering a useful contribution, not because everyone in the world is an Apple fanboy.
- guappa 2y ago
  The last time I trusted people telling me macbooks were objectively good I found out that the meaning of "objective" is very subjective.
  - afavour 2y ago
    You seem very determined for MacBooks to be bad. You're allowed to hold that opinion. Different people have different requirements from their hardware and I can believe that a MacBook isn't a good fit for everyone. But IMO when assessed as a general purpose machine the MacBook is objectively the best device available. (you can certainly debate value for money, though)
    - guappa 2y ago
      > But IMO when assessed as a general purpose machine the MacBook is objectively the best device available. I don't doubt that it is subjectively for you personally the best device available. As I said, I haven't tried the new ones. But clearly I can't trust people like you who claim objectivity where there is none.
      - tmottabr 2y ago
        do not mix specific needs with general needs.. Macbook is objectively one of the best general purpose devices out there.. and there is a lot of data and reviews out there to confirm.. But if you have specific needs, and that seems to be your case, then you need to test if your workflow will work fine on MacOS\Macbook, but then that will also be true for any OS or device.. Mac can be great for many specific use cases, video editing, photo editing are some examples.. For development it can go both ways, it could be great or terrible depending on many factors..
Kye 2y ago
There are people whose opinions I trust who like them, so I don't doubt they work well. The big complaints are the obscene prices for memory and storage. People buy what they can afford, and it's a fraction of the memory and space on an equivalent Windows system using the same chips from the same factories. And often what they can afford in Apple's world isn't enough. There's no excuse other than greed.

creshal 2y ago

Apple is a poor comparison since they switched when Intel's offerings had been uncompetitive compared to AMD's for several years. The last gen of x86 Macs was also in many ways the worst.