7 ms·

What!? The entire ad industry is a scam to everyone involved? Who could have for seen this?

Freak_NL 2y ago
Believing that would be most inconvenient for a rather large number of actors though. Are there any known high-profile experiments where targetted versus content-related advertising was compared? Somehow it seems that targetted advertising works (or worked), or at least that's what all the big players believe.
- pacifika 2y ago
  Yep https://tweakers.net/plan/4126/tweakers-stopt-met-trackingvrije-advertenties.html https://tweakers.net/plan/4126/tweakers-stopt-met-trackingvr... (Dutch, translatable). Trackerless advertising didn’t pan out.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    As far as I understand, this is from the perspective of someone selling ad space. Plus, a lot of the problems they cite are issues with ad platforms integrating with their systems, since most of the tech that ad platforms have assumes tracking, it wasn't working with their trackerless platform. The more interesting question is what real difference it makes to companies that buy advertising whether they buy targeted advertising versus trackerless advertising. After all, trackerless advertising was good enough for a very long time.
- squigz 2y ago
  I mean, I don't really care if it's more effective. If the cost is my privacy, and the privacy of everyone else in the world, then I don't care if it's less profitable to not do targeted advertising.
  - baridbelmedar 2y ago
    I understand your point of view, and I'm not saying you don't have a point. But something tells me that you would take a more pragmatic approach if your livelihood or that of a close relative were directly affected by the company's poor sales as a result. Remember, everyone's job contributes to sales, whether they like it or not :)
    - squigz 2y ago
      Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe I'd take a more pragmatic approach to drug policy if I or a loved one were a drug dealer, too?
    - latexr 2y ago
      I for one take the pragmatic approach of not working for companies with practices I object to. Thus I’m never faced with that dilemma.
      - baridbelmedar 2y ago
        Well, many industries rely on advertising to sell their products, and I wouldn't say those industries are inherently worse than others.
        latexr 2y ago
        > Well, many industries rely on advertising to sell their products I’m not objecting to advertising, but the privacy violations. > and I wouldn't say those industries are inherently worse than others. I wouldn’t (and didn’t) say that either.
      - mtlynch 2y ago
        I'd imagine it's more complicated than that. If you use iOS or Android, I'd imagine there's some practice of Google or Apple that you object to, so it's not practical to do it in all cases. In my experience, I try to avoid companies with objectionable practices, but in a lot of cases, all the vendors are varying degrees of unscrupulous. Or the vendors that are ethical have a significantly worse customer experience because they're playing fair against competitors who are playing unfair. So, I'm left to either choose the least bad vendor or face massive inconvenience from not using a competitive vendor.
- otabdeveloper4 2y ago
  There is no dichotomy of "targeted" vs "content-related". Advertisers want particular social groups. Large, well-defined ones. (E.g., "women with young kids and disposable income".) What particular features you want in your ML model to get those groups is a technical implementation detail.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    What do you mean? There is a huge difference between putting an ad in a magazine for rich mothers with young kids (content-related) versus putting the same ad in a game that woman plays because her targeting ID identifies her as such (targetted).
    - otabdeveloper4 2y ago
      > There is a huge difference Not to the advertiser, no.
      - tsimionescu 2y ago
        Only if the two they are equivalently effective. Advertisers believe today that direct targeting is more effective than content-based targeting. This is reflected in the much higher price they are willing to pay for direct targeting vs content-based targeting.
- Timshel 2y ago
  I believe Duckduckgo wrote some article on the subject (but could not find much with a quick search).
skrebbel 2y ago
Can we please stop with the “eye-roll i knew this all along” comments? They’re not very constructive. Yes, there are things that are bad. Yes, we all know about it. Feigning surprise doesn’t really add much.
- squigz 2y ago
  Downvote, flag, and move on.
  - SteveSmith16384 2y ago
    How do you downvote? I only seem to have an upvote icon.
    - ryanjshaw 2y ago
      You, somewhat ironically, haven't written enough upvoted comments to exceed the karma threshold necessary to hold down vote power.
  - skrebbel 2y ago
    Fair enough
SteveSmith16384 2y ago
I'm not sure what your point is?

Believing that would be most inconvenient for a rather large number of actors though. Are there any known high-profile experiments where targetted versus content-related advertising was compared? Somehow it seems that targetted advertising works (or worked), or at least that's what all the big players believe.

pacifika 2y ago
Yep https://tweakers.net/plan/4126/tweakers-stopt-met-trackingvrije-advertenties.html https://tweakers.net/plan/4126/tweakers-stopt-met-trackingvr... (Dutch, translatable). Trackerless advertising didn’t pan out.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  As far as I understand, this is from the perspective of someone selling ad space. Plus, a lot of the problems they cite are issues with ad platforms integrating with their systems, since most of the tech that ad platforms have assumes tracking, it wasn't working with their trackerless platform. The more interesting question is what real difference it makes to companies that buy advertising whether they buy targeted advertising versus trackerless advertising. After all, trackerless advertising was good enough for a very long time.
squigz 2y ago
I mean, I don't really care if it's more effective. If the cost is my privacy, and the privacy of everyone else in the world, then I don't care if it's less profitable to not do targeted advertising.
- baridbelmedar 2y ago
  I understand your point of view, and I'm not saying you don't have a point. But something tells me that you would take a more pragmatic approach if your livelihood or that of a close relative were directly affected by the company's poor sales as a result. Remember, everyone's job contributes to sales, whether they like it or not :)
  - squigz 2y ago
    Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe I'd take a more pragmatic approach to drug policy if I or a loved one were a drug dealer, too?
  - latexr 2y ago
    I for one take the pragmatic approach of not working for companies with practices I object to. Thus I’m never faced with that dilemma.
    - baridbelmedar 2y ago
      Well, many industries rely on advertising to sell their products, and I wouldn't say those industries are inherently worse than others.
      - latexr 2y ago
        > Well, many industries rely on advertising to sell their products I’m not objecting to advertising, but the privacy violations. > and I wouldn't say those industries are inherently worse than others. I wouldn’t (and didn’t) say that either.
    - mtlynch 2y ago
      I'd imagine it's more complicated than that. If you use iOS or Android, I'd imagine there's some practice of Google or Apple that you object to, so it's not practical to do it in all cases. In my experience, I try to avoid companies with objectionable practices, but in a lot of cases, all the vendors are varying degrees of unscrupulous. Or the vendors that are ethical have a significantly worse customer experience because they're playing fair against competitors who are playing unfair. So, I'm left to either choose the least bad vendor or face massive inconvenience from not using a competitive vendor.
otabdeveloper4 2y ago
There is no dichotomy of "targeted" vs "content-related". Advertisers want particular social groups. Large, well-defined ones. (E.g., "women with young kids and disposable income".) What particular features you want in your ML model to get those groups is a technical implementation detail.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  What do you mean? There is a huge difference between putting an ad in a magazine for rich mothers with young kids (content-related) versus putting the same ad in a game that woman plays because her targeting ID identifies her as such (targetted).
  - otabdeveloper4 2y ago
    > There is a huge difference Not to the advertiser, no.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      Only if the two they are equivalently effective. Advertisers believe today that direct targeting is more effective than content-based targeting. This is reflected in the much higher price they are willing to pay for direct targeting vs content-based targeting.
Timshel 2y ago
I believe Duckduckgo wrote some article on the subject (but could not find much with a quick search).

skrebbel 2y ago

Can we please stop with the “eye-roll i knew this all along” comments? They’re not very constructive. Yes, there are things that are bad. Yes, we all know about it. Feigning surprise doesn’t really add much.

squigz 2y ago
Downvote, flag, and move on.
- SteveSmith16384 2y ago
  How do you downvote? I only seem to have an upvote icon.
  - ryanjshaw 2y ago
    You, somewhat ironically, haven't written enough upvoted comments to exceed the karma threshold necessary to hold down vote power.
- skrebbel 2y ago
  Fair enough

SteveSmith16384 2y ago

I'm not sure what your point is?