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> - it allows to dual-boot with Windows easily: motherboard boot menu is often not easy to access, you need to perform some key combination in a short window, a

> - it allows to dual-boot with Windows easily: motherboard boot menu is often not easy to access, you need to perform some key combination in a short window, also modern bootloader save the last boot option such that if Windows reboots for an update Linux does not start Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? It was a good use case when virtualization was slow but decades after the CPU started shipping with virtualization extensions there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays and it is much more convenient than rebooting and losing all your open applications just to start one on another OS. > - it allows you to boot any other EFI application, such as memtest, or efi shell. Most UEFI firmwares doesn't have a menu to do so. How many times in a decade are you running memtest? Getting to UEFI firmware or booting another OS/drive is just a matter of holding one key on my thinkpad. I would just simply not buy and bad hardware that doesn't allow me to do that. Vote with you wallet damit. I would also argue that you can perfectly have grub sitting alongside a direct boot to kernel in an UEFI setup. There are many other bootloaders than grub and users are still free to use them instead of what the distro is shipping. UEFI basically allows you to have as many bootloader as you have space on that small fat partition.

messe 2y ago
> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes, there are still use cases for it. The state of GPU virtualisation, for example, is a spectrum from doesn't exist/sucks to only affordable for enterprise customers. So unless you have a second graphics card to do pass through with, if you want to use your GPU under both OSes then you almost always have to dual boot (yes, there are other options like running Linux headless, but it's not even remotely easier to set up than dual boot)
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Most mainboards comes with an integrated gpu though? If you use that one for the host OS, it is easy to pass the discrete through no?
  - korhojoa 2y ago
    Consumer motherboards haven't had gpus for a while now (IPMI usually comes with one, so servers do), they're built in to the CPU (if they are, not all cpus have them). These can't usually be easily allocated to a vm.
    - redox99 2y ago
      He's saying the opposite: Host has integrated graphics, VM has dedicated GPU.
      - sqeaky 2y ago
        How can the host have integrated graphics, if integrated graphics don't exist? Per, Korhojoa, and my personal experience plenty of desktop CPUs simply don't have integrated GPUs. Consumer mainboards simply don't come with them at all. Consider my previous workstation CPU, top of the line a few years ago and no iGPU: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ryzen-9-5950x.html https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/50... Integrated GPUs is a feature of server mainboards so that there is something to display with for troubleshooting, but not on any retail mainboards I am aware of. It is a feature of some consumer grade GPUs designed for either budget or low-power gaming. It simply doesn't exist on all CPUs, consider the AMD 5600, 5600x and 5600g, last gen mid-range CPUs adequate for gaming and the x had a little more clock speed, and the g had an iGPU.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        prmoustache 2y ago
        > and the g had an iGPU. So you are contradicting yourself.
        sqeaky 2y ago
        This is a fundamentally dishonest take. I provided three specific CPUs that varied by just the letter at the end where some had an iGPU and some didn't. I am being honest that some have it but that it isn't ubiquitous.
zik 2y ago
> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes. I work on Linux and play most games on Windows. Playing games on a VM is... pretty terrible.
adham-omran 2y ago
> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes. > there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays Not for real-time audio production. The state of audio plugins having Linux support from vendors like EastWest, Spitfire, Native Instruments, iZotope is abysmal and even Wine does not run them nowadays. Even with a virtual machine that has pinned cores and USB pass-through of a dedicated audio interface, it practically locks you to one sample rate, any change causes crackles, try to load more than one plugin and you hear crackles. There is plenty of overhead.
drtgh 2y ago
> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? One of the big problems is with the graphics cards, because the vendors block a driver functionality ( SR-IOV ) for consumer GPUs that would allow single GPU passthrough for VMs. The alternative is to leave the system headless (reboot needed, and the VM need to run as root), or to use two graphics cards (wasting power, hardware resources, etc.), for which you also need to add an extra delay layer inside the VM for to re-send the graphics back to the screen, or to connect two wire inputs to the monitor.
tengwar2 2y ago
Yes, people dual boot. Particularly people who are contemplating a move from Windows. I'd hate to see Linux take the "my way or the highway" attitude of Windows.
- delfinom 2y ago
  Hilariously, the windows boot manager supports dual booting as well. So one can use it instead of grub to dual boot.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  My experience when I had a dual boot in the late 90's was that rebooting is such an interruption that you never become fully comfortable on one of the OS. You just stick to the OS you are used to and never really do the switch. While if don't dual boot you can switch completely to another OS and only use VM or remote desktop for the handful of use cases when you aren't ready yet (and then end ip abandoning them completely as well).
  - rty32 2y ago
    I don't think you got the point. The experience of using a VM is not good, that's exactly why people are doing dual boot. They know what they are doing.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > the late 90's was that rebooting is such an interruption that you never become fully comfortable on one of the OS Keep in mind that booting takes a tiny fraction of the time today that it did in the 90s.
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      Regardless if it takes 20 seconds or 2 minutes it is still an interruption.
blincoln 2y ago
I dual-boot on my personal desktop. I mostly use Debian, but there's a Windows partition for games and a few other Windows-specific things. The GPU in it was way too expensive to justify buying two, and I use it under Linux for ML, hash-cracking, etc. My original plan was to do everything in a Windows VM, but there was too much of a performance hit for some of my purposes, and VMWare doesn't allow attaching physical disks or non-encrypted VMDKs to a Windows 11 VM, so it's actually easier to have a data drive that's accessible from both OSes with dual boot than it would be with a VM.[1] I'm still disappointed about that. [1] Using HGFS to map a host path through to the VM is not an option because of how slow that is, especially when accessing large numbers of files.
michaelmrose 2y ago
> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024 Seems the answer is yes. https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_dual_boot_win https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_dual_boot_win > there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays It might be more accurate to say that if you have a fast computer with lots of resources the experience running a basic desktop experience feels perceptibly native. This means it is a great answer to running windows software that neither needs a discrete GPU nor direct access to hardware on the minority of machines that are capable enough for this to be comfortable. In actuality laptops are more common than desktops and the majority of computers have 8GB of RAM or less. 60% all form factors 66% laptops. This just isn't enough to comfortably run both. https://linux-hardware.org/?view=memory_size&formfactor=all https://linux-hardware.org/?view=memory_size&formfactor=all Furthermore while most Linux users are comfortable installing and running windows and Linux whereas they may or may not be familiar with virtualization. Also probably the number one reason someone might dual boot is probably still gaming which although light years ahead of years prior still doesn't have 100% compatibility with Windows. In theory GPU passthrough is an option but in reality this is a complicated niche configuration unsuitable for the majority of use cases. Anyone who isn't happy with steam/proton/wine is probably more apt to dual boot rather than virtualize.

messe 2y ago

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes, there are still use cases for it. The state of GPU virtualisation, for example, is a spectrum from doesn't exist/sucks to only affordable for enterprise customers. So unless you have a second graphics card to do pass through with, if you want to use your GPU under both OSes then you almost always have to dual boot (yes, there are other options like running Linux headless, but it's not even remotely easier to set up than dual boot)

prmoustache 2y ago
Most mainboards comes with an integrated gpu though? If you use that one for the host OS, it is easy to pass the discrete through no?
- korhojoa 2y ago
  Consumer motherboards haven't had gpus for a while now (IPMI usually comes with one, so servers do), they're built in to the CPU (if they are, not all cpus have them). These can't usually be easily allocated to a vm.
  - redox99 2y ago
    He's saying the opposite: Host has integrated graphics, VM has dedicated GPU.
    - sqeaky 2y ago
      How can the host have integrated graphics, if integrated graphics don't exist? Per, Korhojoa, and my personal experience plenty of desktop CPUs simply don't have integrated GPUs. Consumer mainboards simply don't come with them at all. Consider my previous workstation CPU, top of the line a few years ago and no iGPU: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ryzen-9-5950x.html https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/50... Integrated GPUs is a feature of server mainboards so that there is something to display with for troubleshooting, but not on any retail mainboards I am aware of. It is a feature of some consumer grade GPUs designed for either budget or low-power gaming. It simply doesn't exist on all CPUs, consider the AMD 5600, 5600x and 5600g, last gen mid-range CPUs adequate for gaming and the x had a little more clock speed, and the g had an iGPU.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - prmoustache 2y ago
        > and the g had an iGPU. So you are contradicting yourself.
        sqeaky 2y ago
        This is a fundamentally dishonest take. I provided three specific CPUs that varied by just the letter at the end where some had an iGPU and some didn't. I am being honest that some have it but that it isn't ubiquitous.

zik 2y ago

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes. I work on Linux and play most games on Windows. Playing games on a VM is... pretty terrible.

adham-omran 2y ago

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? Yes. > there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays Not for real-time audio production. The state of audio plugins having Linux support from vendors like EastWest, Spitfire, Native Instruments, iZotope is abysmal and even Wine does not run them nowadays. Even with a virtual machine that has pinned cores and USB pass-through of a dedicated audio interface, it practically locks you to one sample rate, any change causes crackles, try to load more than one plugin and you hear crackles. There is plenty of overhead.

drtgh 2y ago

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? One of the big problems is with the graphics cards, because the vendors block a driver functionality ( SR-IOV ) for consumer GPUs that would allow single GPU passthrough for VMs. The alternative is to leave the system headless (reboot needed, and the VM need to run as root), or to use two graphics cards (wasting power, hardware resources, etc.), for which you also need to add an extra delay layer inside the VM for to re-send the graphics back to the screen, or to connect two wire inputs to the monitor.

tengwar2 2y ago

Yes, people dual boot. Particularly people who are contemplating a move from Windows. I'd hate to see Linux take the "my way or the highway" attitude of Windows.

delfinom 2y ago
Hilariously, the windows boot manager supports dual booting as well. So one can use it instead of grub to dual boot.
prmoustache 2y ago
My experience when I had a dual boot in the late 90's was that rebooting is such an interruption that you never become fully comfortable on one of the OS. You just stick to the OS you are used to and never really do the switch. While if don't dual boot you can switch completely to another OS and only use VM or remote desktop for the handful of use cases when you aren't ready yet (and then end ip abandoning them completely as well).
- rty32 2y ago
  I don't think you got the point. The experience of using a VM is not good, that's exactly why people are doing dual boot. They know what they are doing.
- lolinder 2y ago
  > the late 90's was that rebooting is such an interruption that you never become fully comfortable on one of the OS Keep in mind that booting takes a tiny fraction of the time today that it did in the 90s.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Regardless if it takes 20 seconds or 2 minutes it is still an interruption.

blincoln 2y ago

I dual-boot on my personal desktop. I mostly use Debian, but there's a Windows partition for games and a few other Windows-specific things. The GPU in it was way too expensive to justify buying two, and I use it under Linux for ML, hash-cracking, etc. My original plan was to do everything in a Windows VM, but there was too much of a performance hit for some of my purposes, and VMWare doesn't allow attaching physical disks or non-encrypted VMDKs to a Windows 11 VM, so it's actually easier to have a data drive that's accessible from both OSes with dual boot than it would be with a VM.[1] I'm still disappointed about that. [1] Using HGFS to map a host path through to the VM is not an option because of how slow that is, especially when accessing large numbers of files.

michaelmrose 2y ago

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024 Seems the answer is yes. https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_dual_boot_win https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_dual_boot_win > there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays It might be more accurate to say that if you have a fast computer with lots of resources the experience running a basic desktop experience feels perceptibly native. This means it is a great answer to running windows software that neither needs a discrete GPU nor direct access to hardware on the minority of machines that are capable enough for this to be comfortable. In actuality laptops are more common than desktops and the majority of computers have 8GB of RAM or less. 60% all form factors 66% laptops. This just isn't enough to comfortably run both. https://linux-hardware.org/?view=memory_size&formfactor=all https://linux-hardware.org/?view=memory_size&formfactor=all Furthermore while most Linux users are comfortable installing and running windows and Linux whereas they may or may not be familiar with virtualization. Also probably the number one reason someone might dual boot is probably still gaming which although light years ahead of years prior still doesn't have 100% compatibility with Windows. In theory GPU passthrough is an option but in reality this is a complicated niche configuration unsuitable for the majority of use cases. Anyone who isn't happy with steam/proton/wine is probably more apt to dual boot rather than virtualize.