3 ms·

I love the idea of leaving infrastructure to our kids. But that doesn't even exist anymore. We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our

I love the idea of leaving infrastructure to our kids. But that doesn't even exist anymore. We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids. We, and our kids will only reap reward from the infrastructure created over 100 years ago. The rest they will reap the maintenance required on the current stuff. Old things were built for us and our future, now we build for ourselves (barely).

thriftwy 2y ago
This seems to be an issue with USA where the only infrastructural things seems to be mounting debt. China was building roads, rail and metros like crazy in the last 20 years. Moscow has got second metro ring and some highways are finally materializing. India probably has it all in the future as it is not satiated capital-wise. Buying a spare apartment for your children does not seem out of reach for many people, so their children do not have to ever cope with debt trap or face possibility of eviction. The West does indeed seem to be in a spending ideology crisis but it is not that relevant anymore.
- eru 2y ago
  Singapore for example is doing just fine in that regard, and is definitely part of the 'west'. Russia is currently in a big war that destroys a lot of accumulated capital. So I wouldn't exactly take them as a prime example of good stewardship. And even the much maligned US is doing just fine. It's just that their public infrastructure isn't doing as well as they should (for various governance reasons), but most private investment is holding up well. Their private sector is still the envy of the world; their public stock markets are still about as valuable as the rest of the world's combined.
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    Singapore isn't a part of the concept of "the West"...
    - eru 2y ago
      Why not? Singapore is firmly embedded in global markets, follows western models of rule of law and market economics, western culture, etc. The whole point of Singapore's model is to be a deliberate outpost of the west in South East Asia. (And if you want to talk about geography: Australia is further east and south than Singapore, but is typically counted as part of 'the west', too.)
      - seoulmetro 2y ago
        Because they are a country of majority non-European decent and proliferation? Their population is made up of Chinese, Malay, Indian and other. None of these are Western nations by the definition. Japan isn't Western either, although it is probably the most "the West" nation in all of Asia. >The whole point of Singapore's model is to be a deliberate outpost of the west in South East Asia. Not since handover from the British... The whole point of Singapore is to be a country founded on good execution with little resources and amazing cohesion.
        eru 2y ago
        > Because they are a country of majority non-European decent and proliferation? Their population is made up of Chinese, Malay, Indian and other. None of these are Western nations by the definition. Hmm, ok.. But then your earlier comment seemed to count Russia as no-western, despite them being European?
        seoulmetro 2y ago
        Russia is Western. I didn't say otherwise.
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  Yeah I think there is some problem with the scaling of democratic processes combined with capitalism. Either that or we just all lost our sense of belonging through something like globalisation and it's showing by our lack of incentive to build for each other. It's a real shame but it's definitely, like you said, something that seems to only be affecting the new me-first culture of the West.
peoplefromibiza 2y ago
> We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids That's standard practice by the book though. No generation has ever left anything better than that to the future ones. [1] Also: future does not exist, it's been invented by old men thinking of themselves as future reborn children (or whatever their beliefs told them to believe). But the future generations, not knowing better, will assume that whatever we are leaving behind it's how it is supposed to be. A trivial example: young people now don't complain about the ad infested internet or the addiction driven social networks, it's how it is supposed to work for them. But also: if you don't give them something, they won't (can't) miss it. Will they miss the rotary phone or the walkman? No, they won't. In the same way I never missed washing clothes in a river, like my grandma did. I was born with the washing machine and I'm thankful for that. [1] imagine that the Colosseum's name comes from people seeing a colossal statue in front of it, the statue was nicknamed "The Colossus" (nobody knew who that was) so obviously the building in front of it became "The Colosseum". Little did they know the statue was of Nero, the Roman Emperor, and the building was an amphitheatre built in a different period. They did not know about Nero, about Vespasian, the Flavian dynasty, the gladiators or the naumachia, but they thought it was good enough to use it as a market...
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  >No generation has ever left anything better than that to the future ones. ??? We were leaving some of the best products of our labour in the 1800s and early 1900s (for some parts of the world). I think you're misunderstanding the point of tech fading but infrastructure staying. For innovation, sure, it's going to fade, but there are thousands of things we know that do not fade that we could be building today to leave our next generations. That is what they did. We do not do it, not even slightly... AND it's easier for us to do so, yet still we don't.
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    > We were leaving some of the best products of our labour in the 1800s and early 1900s And also all of the mistakes of the industrial revolution... Including pollution, horrible living and working conditions, deadly workplaces, child labour, exploitation and oppression of the workers, unfair distribution of wealth etc etc See the construction of the Paris underground or the grim consequences of using asbestos in buildings. > I think you're misunderstanding the point of tech fading but infrastructure staying. I think you are moving the goalpost "We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids" like we always did. Medieval Bologna was full of tall towers, only a handful of them survived to this day. Because they were poorly built and even worse maintained.

thriftwy 2y ago

This seems to be an issue with USA where the only infrastructural things seems to be mounting debt. China was building roads, rail and metros like crazy in the last 20 years. Moscow has got second metro ring and some highways are finally materializing. India probably has it all in the future as it is not satiated capital-wise. Buying a spare apartment for your children does not seem out of reach for many people, so their children do not have to ever cope with debt trap or face possibility of eviction. The West does indeed seem to be in a spending ideology crisis but it is not that relevant anymore.

eru 2y ago
Singapore for example is doing just fine in that regard, and is definitely part of the 'west'. Russia is currently in a big war that destroys a lot of accumulated capital. So I wouldn't exactly take them as a prime example of good stewardship. And even the much maligned US is doing just fine. It's just that their public infrastructure isn't doing as well as they should (for various governance reasons), but most private investment is holding up well. Their private sector is still the envy of the world; their public stock markets are still about as valuable as the rest of the world's combined.
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  Singapore isn't a part of the concept of "the West"...
  - eru 2y ago
    Why not? Singapore is firmly embedded in global markets, follows western models of rule of law and market economics, western culture, etc. The whole point of Singapore's model is to be a deliberate outpost of the west in South East Asia. (And if you want to talk about geography: Australia is further east and south than Singapore, but is typically counted as part of 'the west', too.)
    - seoulmetro 2y ago
      Because they are a country of majority non-European decent and proliferation? Their population is made up of Chinese, Malay, Indian and other. None of these are Western nations by the definition. Japan isn't Western either, although it is probably the most "the West" nation in all of Asia. >The whole point of Singapore's model is to be a deliberate outpost of the west in South East Asia. Not since handover from the British... The whole point of Singapore is to be a country founded on good execution with little resources and amazing cohesion.
      - eru 2y ago
        > Because they are a country of majority non-European decent and proliferation? Their population is made up of Chinese, Malay, Indian and other. None of these are Western nations by the definition. Hmm, ok.. But then your earlier comment seemed to count Russia as no-western, despite them being European?
        seoulmetro 2y ago
        Russia is Western. I didn't say otherwise.
seoulmetro 2y ago
Yeah I think there is some problem with the scaling of democratic processes combined with capitalism. Either that or we just all lost our sense of belonging through something like globalisation and it's showing by our lack of incentive to build for each other. It's a real shame but it's definitely, like you said, something that seems to only be affecting the new me-first culture of the West.

peoplefromibiza 2y ago

> We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids That's standard practice by the book though. No generation has ever left anything better than that to the future ones. [1] Also: future does not exist, it's been invented by old men thinking of themselves as future reborn children (or whatever their beliefs told them to believe). But the future generations, not knowing better, will assume that whatever we are leaving behind it's how it is supposed to be. A trivial example: young people now don't complain about the ad infested internet or the addiction driven social networks, it's how it is supposed to work for them. But also: if you don't give them something, they won't (can't) miss it. Will they miss the rotary phone or the walkman? No, they won't. In the same way I never missed washing clothes in a river, like my grandma did. I was born with the washing machine and I'm thankful for that. [1] imagine that the Colosseum's name comes from people seeing a colossal statue in front of it, the statue was nicknamed "The Colossus" (nobody knew who that was) so obviously the building in front of it became "The Colosseum". Little did they know the statue was of Nero, the Roman Emperor, and the building was an amphitheatre built in a different period. They did not know about Nero, about Vespasian, the Flavian dynasty, the gladiators or the naumachia, but they thought it was good enough to use it as a market...

seoulmetro 2y ago
>No generation has ever left anything better than that to the future ones. ??? We were leaving some of the best products of our labour in the 1800s and early 1900s (for some parts of the world). I think you're misunderstanding the point of tech fading but infrastructure staying. For innovation, sure, it's going to fade, but there are thousands of things we know that do not fade that we could be building today to leave our next generations. That is what they did. We do not do it, not even slightly... AND it's easier for us to do so, yet still we don't.
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  > We were leaving some of the best products of our labour in the 1800s and early 1900s And also all of the mistakes of the industrial revolution... Including pollution, horrible living and working conditions, deadly workplaces, child labour, exploitation and oppression of the workers, unfair distribution of wealth etc etc See the construction of the Paris underground or the grim consequences of using asbestos in buildings. > I think you're misunderstanding the point of tech fading but infrastructure staying. I think you are moving the goalpost "We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids" like we always did. Medieval Bologna was full of tall towers, only a handful of them survived to this day. Because they were poorly built and even worse maintained.