6 ms·

The effects are not just the ton of fish, or even the job lost, it's equivalent to scorching the earth and polluting the groundwater of land based farming affec

The effects are not just the ton of fish, or even the job lost, it's equivalent to scorching the earth and polluting the groundwater of land based farming affecting generations into the future.

OccamsMirror 2y ago
Yeah, but salmon is delicious and consumers gobble it up. Don't worry about the externalities. That's (hopefully) for future generations to pay for.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  It’s wild how people fret about birth rate declines while we’re also openly stealing from the future. Humans are disappointing. https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2023-09-13-all-planetary-boundaries-mapped-out-for-the-first-time-six-of-nine-crossed.html https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    We also leave the future with all the infrastructure we build, and you may provide your children with some direct inheritance if you manage to save instead of wasting capital on trinkets.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics
      - thriftwy 2y ago
        It does not look like our numbers are increasing anymore, so I don't see how the latter is applicable. Middle East and Africa are booming and this is not ending well, but I just don't see what can be done about it.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        You misunderstand population momentum. While fertility rates are rapidly declining, the global population still increases, and is projected to peak at ~10-11B people around 2100 (up from ~8B today). India will surpass China in total population around 2027, while already experiencing wet bulb temperatures beyond what the human body can survive. > but I just don't see what can be done about it. Agreed. https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explained/ https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explaine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100 https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-po... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://archive.today/9sYS8 https://archive.today/9sYS8
        kortilla 2y ago
        Wet bulb temperatures are about as relevant as hypothermia temperatures. We just invented the technology for heating long before air conditioning so uninformed people like to trot it out like it’s some relevant barrier where people will die in mass. They will just move to colder climates or generate some electricity to use air conditioning.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
    - seoulmetro 2y ago
      I love the idea of leaving infrastructure to our kids. But that doesn't even exist anymore. We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids. We, and our kids will only reap reward from the infrastructure created over 100 years ago. The rest they will reap the maintenance required on the current stuff. Old things were built for us and our future, now we build for ourselves (barely).
      - thriftwy 2y ago
        This seems to be an issue with USA where the only infrastructural things seems to be mounting debt. China was building roads, rail and metros like crazy in the last 20 years. Moscow has got second metro ring and some highways are finally materializing. India probably has it all in the future as it is not satiated capital-wise. Buying a spare apartment for your children does not seem out of reach for many people, so their children do not have to ever cope with debt trap or face possibility of eviction. The West does indeed seem to be in a spending ideology crisis but it is not that relevant anymore.
        eru 2y ago
        Singapore for example is doing just fine in that regard, and is definitely part of the 'west'. Russia is currently in a big war that destroys a lot of accumulated capital. So I wouldn't exactly take them as a prime example of good stewardship. And even the much maligned US is doing just fine. It's just that their public infrastructure isn't doing as well as they should (for various governance reasons), but most private investment is holding up well. Their private sector is still the envy of the world; their public stock markets are still about as valuable as the rest of the world's combined.
        seoulmetro 2y ago
        Singapore isn't a part of the concept of "the West"...
        eru 2y ago
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - eigenket 2y ago
      We are humans. We are the smartest and most capable things on the planet. As far as we know we're the smartest and most capable things in the universe. That capability affords us a lot of privileges, including a much more comfortable life than we would otherwise have. I believe it also comes with some responsibilities, not particularly onerous ones, but just to do our best to leave the world in a not-worse state than we found it.
- Quothling 2y ago
  The weird thing about salmon (and other fish farms) is that the fish they produce aren't necessarily more tasty than the fish they consume. I live in Denmark, we have some really delicious small fish but they are hard to sell, so they are generally used to feed fish farms instead. With the soybeans mentioned earlier I at least get why it's fed to livestock that are then fed to people. I'm not going to say it's the right thing to do but at least there is a difference between soy and pork. With fish it's literally taking one delicious fish and putting it into another (objectively less delicious) fish. So weird.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    You can eat salmon in sushi rolls or just cut it into pieces and put on the bread. With other fish, you typically have to fry them first, which is a complex affair. The result is also much less predictable. There are also bones and fish skin which doesn't contribute to overall experience positively. I can eat salmon several times a week whereas cooking fish would be an once per month affair best case. Perhaps once a week if I didn't have to work for a living.
    - profsummergig 2y ago
      Is the salmon pre-cooked? Or is it eaten raw?
      - kortilla 2y ago
        Raw. It’s frozen at a low temp for a long enough time to make it safe to eat. Look up “sushi fda freezing regulations” for more info.
    - Quothling 2y ago
      I know this will vary a lot based on where you live, but here in Denmark you can get sushi with a lot of our local smaller fish. Mackerel, herring and smelt are quite popular. I think a lot of it is because "sustainability" as a "brand" is just good market value here, but it's also just as good as salmon or tuna. Very few places actually use farmed salmon, though I'm not sure the Alaskan salmon are really that much better than Norwegian farmed salmon from a sustainability point of view.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

The effects are not just the ton of fish, or even the job lost, it's equivalent to scorching the earth and polluting the groundwater of land based farming affecting generations into the future.

OccamsMirror 2y ago

Yeah, but salmon is delicious and consumers gobble it up. Don't worry about the externalities. That's (hopefully) for future generations to pay for.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
It’s wild how people fret about birth rate declines while we’re also openly stealing from the future. Humans are disappointing. https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2023-09-13-all-planetary-boundaries-mapped-out-for-the-first-time-six-of-nine-crossed.html https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458
- thriftwy 2y ago
  We also leave the future with all the infrastructure we build, and you may provide your children with some direct inheritance if you manage to save instead of wasting capital on trinkets.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics
    - thriftwy 2y ago
      It does not look like our numbers are increasing anymore, so I don't see how the latter is applicable. Middle East and Africa are booming and this is not ending well, but I just don't see what can be done about it.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        You misunderstand population momentum. While fertility rates are rapidly declining, the global population still increases, and is projected to peak at ~10-11B people around 2100 (up from ~8B today). India will surpass China in total population around 2027, while already experiencing wet bulb temperatures beyond what the human body can survive. > but I just don't see what can be done about it. Agreed. https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explained/ https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explaine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100 https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-po... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://archive.today/9sYS8 https://archive.today/9sYS8
        kortilla 2y ago
        Wet bulb temperatures are about as relevant as hypothermia temperatures. We just invented the technology for heating long before air conditioning so uninformed people like to trot it out like it’s some relevant barrier where people will die in mass. They will just move to colder climates or generate some electricity to use air conditioning.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    I love the idea of leaving infrastructure to our kids. But that doesn't even exist anymore. We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids. We, and our kids will only reap reward from the infrastructure created over 100 years ago. The rest they will reap the maintenance required on the current stuff. Old things were built for us and our future, now we build for ourselves (barely).
    - thriftwy 2y ago
      This seems to be an issue with USA where the only infrastructural things seems to be mounting debt. China was building roads, rail and metros like crazy in the last 20 years. Moscow has got second metro ring and some highways are finally materializing. India probably has it all in the future as it is not satiated capital-wise. Buying a spare apartment for your children does not seem out of reach for many people, so their children do not have to ever cope with debt trap or face possibility of eviction. The West does indeed seem to be in a spending ideology crisis but it is not that relevant anymore.
      - eru 2y ago
        Singapore for example is doing just fine in that regard, and is definitely part of the 'west'. Russia is currently in a big war that destroys a lot of accumulated capital. So I wouldn't exactly take them as a prime example of good stewardship. And even the much maligned US is doing just fine. It's just that their public infrastructure isn't doing as well as they should (for various governance reasons), but most private investment is holding up well. Their private sector is still the envy of the world; their public stock markets are still about as valuable as the rest of the world's combined.
        seoulmetro 2y ago
        Singapore isn't a part of the concept of "the West"...
        eru 2y ago
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - eigenket 2y ago
    We are humans. We are the smartest and most capable things on the planet. As far as we know we're the smartest and most capable things in the universe. That capability affords us a lot of privileges, including a much more comfortable life than we would otherwise have. I believe it also comes with some responsibilities, not particularly onerous ones, but just to do our best to leave the world in a not-worse state than we found it.
Quothling 2y ago
The weird thing about salmon (and other fish farms) is that the fish they produce aren't necessarily more tasty than the fish they consume. I live in Denmark, we have some really delicious small fish but they are hard to sell, so they are generally used to feed fish farms instead. With the soybeans mentioned earlier I at least get why it's fed to livestock that are then fed to people. I'm not going to say it's the right thing to do but at least there is a difference between soy and pork. With fish it's literally taking one delicious fish and putting it into another (objectively less delicious) fish. So weird.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  You can eat salmon in sushi rolls or just cut it into pieces and put on the bread. With other fish, you typically have to fry them first, which is a complex affair. The result is also much less predictable. There are also bones and fish skin which doesn't contribute to overall experience positively. I can eat salmon several times a week whereas cooking fish would be an once per month affair best case. Perhaps once a week if I didn't have to work for a living.
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    Is the salmon pre-cooked? Or is it eaten raw?
    - kortilla 2y ago
      Raw. It’s frozen at a low temp for a long enough time to make it safe to eat. Look up “sushi fda freezing regulations” for more info.
  - Quothling 2y ago
    I know this will vary a lot based on where you live, but here in Denmark you can get sushi with a lot of our local smaller fish. Mackerel, herring and smelt are quite popular. I think a lot of it is because "sustainability" as a "brand" is just good market value here, but it's also just as good as salmon or tuna. Very few places actually use farmed salmon, though I'm not sure the Alaskan salmon are really that much better than Norwegian farmed salmon from a sustainability point of view.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]