4 ms·

broken windows policing and stop and frisk were indeed morally questionable strategies as they were primarily used on minority communities

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
asdff 2y ago
The rub of this is people conflate to race what they should conflate to economic circumstance. A poor white person is no more or less likely to commit a crime of opportunity as a poor black person, but most people don't understand nuance much less statistics or demography or history. It also doesn't help that a lot of police back then as well as today are racist.
Cupertino95014 2y ago
And yet, many minority members are alive today because they were not murdered by those criminals caught by stop-and-frisk, or broken windows policing.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  We are OK with giving up civil liberties when it's the liberties of minorities?
  - Cupertino95014 2y ago
    We are OK with these minorities becoming crime victims, because we don't want to inconvenience potential criminals?
    - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
      Assuming all they are is "potential criminals", they are, in fact, innocent people.
      - Cupertino95014 2y ago
        So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way. Or people jumping subway turnstiles often have other warrants out agains them. The fact is, the Giulani / Bratton reforms worked. But I guess you prefer more crime. Even if you're the one being mugged?
        SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        > So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way. "The number of stops increased dramatically in 2008 to over half a million, 88% of which did not result in any fine or conviction, peaking in 2011 to 685,724 stops, again with 88% (603,437) resulting in no conviction. Leading to the remaining 82,287 resulting in convictions. On average, from 2002 to 2013, the percentage of individuals stopped without any convictions was 87.6%." [1] Not terribly distinctive. They got it right less than 1/8th of the time. If that is your argument, that they were only stopping people they think had guns and were going to commit a violent crime, it's a terribly poor one. The vast majority of people were detained by the police with no cause other than looking a particular way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit...
        Cupertino95014 2y ago
        So those stats (from a biased source!) are from 2008. I guess that means you're happy with going back to the early days of Bratton's policing, then? By 2008 the battle was mostly won. Assuming I believe your numbers (a stretch, but stay with me): do you have some other way of catching those 82,287 convictions? Or you just don't care? The reason they were in minority neighborhoods is that that's where the crime is. And also where the crime victims are.
        2y ago
- locopati 2y ago
  a lot of minority folks are traumatized by not being able to walk down the street without being roughed up by police. innocent until proven guilty should be the bar we aspire to for everyone. if they tried the same tactic in a white neighborhood, it never would have stood.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

asdff 2y ago

The rub of this is people conflate to race what they should conflate to economic circumstance. A poor white person is no more or less likely to commit a crime of opportunity as a poor black person, but most people don't understand nuance much less statistics or demography or history. It also doesn't help that a lot of police back then as well as today are racist.

Cupertino95014 2y ago

And yet, many minority members are alive today because they were not murdered by those criminals caught by stop-and-frisk, or broken windows policing.

SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
We are OK with giving up civil liberties when it's the liberties of minorities?
- Cupertino95014 2y ago
  We are OK with these minorities becoming crime victims, because we don't want to inconvenience potential criminals?
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    Assuming all they are is "potential criminals", they are, in fact, innocent people.
    - Cupertino95014 2y ago
      So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way. Or people jumping subway turnstiles often have other warrants out agains them. The fact is, the Giulani / Bratton reforms worked. But I guess you prefer more crime. Even if you're the one being mugged?
      - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        > So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way. "The number of stops increased dramatically in 2008 to over half a million, 88% of which did not result in any fine or conviction, peaking in 2011 to 685,724 stops, again with 88% (603,437) resulting in no conviction. Leading to the remaining 82,287 resulting in convictions. On average, from 2002 to 2013, the percentage of individuals stopped without any convictions was 87.6%." [1] Not terribly distinctive. They got it right less than 1/8th of the time. If that is your argument, that they were only stopping people they think had guns and were going to commit a violent crime, it's a terribly poor one. The vast majority of people were detained by the police with no cause other than looking a particular way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit...
        Cupertino95014 2y ago
        So those stats (from a biased source!) are from 2008. I guess that means you're happy with going back to the early days of Bratton's policing, then? By 2008 the battle was mostly won. Assuming I believe your numbers (a stretch, but stay with me): do you have some other way of catching those 82,287 convictions? Or you just don't care? The reason they were in minority neighborhoods is that that's where the crime is. And also where the crime victims are.
        2y ago
locopati 2y ago
a lot of minority folks are traumatized by not being able to walk down the street without being roughed up by police. innocent until proven guilty should be the bar we aspire to for everyone. if they tried the same tactic in a white neighborhood, it never would have stood.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]