5 ms·

This is just a regular PhD experience, but the author has made it sound like some special sort of skill only they and a few others know how to master. Everyone

by prashp 2y ago

This is just a regular PhD experience, but the author has made it sound like some special sort of skill only they and a few others know how to master. Everyone has to turn failed experiments into a successful PhD because they have to finish and graduate by the time funding runs out.

JadeNB 2y ago
> This is just a regular PhD experience, but the author has made it sound like some special sort of skill only they and a few others know how to master. Making a regular experience sound like a special sort of skill only you have is itself a special sort of skill that it's valuable to have if you want to apply for grants.
- authorfly 2y ago
  How do you effectively apply to PhD grants, is it different to winning say Startup / Innovation grants?
  - JadeNB 2y ago
    > How do you effectively apply to PhD grants, is it different to winning say Startup / Innovation grants? I'm afraid that I don't have the faintest idea, both because my grant activity hasn't been noticably effective (and I held no grants while pursuing my Ph.D.), and because I've never applied for a Startup / Innovation grant.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nxobject 2y ago
I don’t think she’s saying “only _I_ can do this!!” - it just read to me like a “this is a what happened and what I learned from it”. Actually, I think I’ll send this article to my high school physics teacher - he was a good mentor, and he might enjoy giving it to his students.
vikramkr 2y ago
That's not really true. They don't have to finish and graduate by the time funding runs out - nearly half of students simply fail to graduate (in the us). It's also extra untrue because this author is describing running into a null result and turning that into a PHD when usually null results don't go anywhere, either to a thesis or a publication. But it becomes true again in the context that the null result is nice framing for this article but isn't the framing in the intro/contents of the thesis. And also because: "A turning point came when another graduate student suggested a dramatic change to my protocol. I was skeptical, but I thought it was worth a shot. It turned out they were correct: After trying yet another experiment, the results started to look better—and after a few more changes, I eventually got the protocol to work. " doesn't sound like a failed experiment to me!
- glitchc 2y ago
  PhDs are more about perseverance than anything else, as highlighted in this story.
  - vikramkr 2y ago
    well, also luck. Plenty of people have a PI change which can be devastating especially on a visa, or wouldn't have gotten the recommendation for the other protocol to get it to work, and also for the current crop - giant global pandemic shutting down all the labs - did you pick a topic that's essential research/not lab based? And strategy. If you chose a field based on passion instead of practical considerations like grant availability - life might be more complex in infectious disease research than in oncology lol. And academia politics. Though for some obviously politics is a plus
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - authorfly 2y ago
      Can you explain how you would determine or know about grant availability? Especially that "life might be more complex in infectious disease research than in oncology" - as an outsider this really caught my interest, I'd have imagined the two have similar levels of grants? Maybe more than a field like Psychology or Developmental Biology, about the same? Does this mean more people are going into in disease research because A) it's more interesting to them? (vs Oncology)... or B) The grants from COVID mean it's a better field?
peppertree 2y ago
I don't think the author was trying to position herself as "special". It's a pretty universal experience to try something unkonwn and feeling like a failure. I think the author is trying to convey that it's ok to feel that way.
mihaaly 2y ago
Why a failed experiment needs to be turned into success? The outcome of the research (experiment) could be both success and failure, right? That's why we study it, experiment with it, we do not know it yet, we want to see if it is as believed or not. The important is to grow the body of knowledge here - and knowing if something does not work the way we thought will is knowledge -, not to pretend being successful, right? For pretending there are countless other (much much better paying) occupations anyway.
- gus_massa 2y ago
  It's too easy to get unsuccesful results. (Does listening to Macarena for 8 hours per day cure brain cancer in mice?) So unsuccesful results are very difficult to publish and to be the base of a thesis. So you must find a twist or secondary result and make it the central part. (Does listening to Macarena for 8 hours per day cause brain damage in mice?)
  - mihaaly 2y ago
    That's true. Also, I think I seen that Macarena article. : ) It suggested to extend the research to primates and Spice Girls and finding songs that cure the damage of Macarena.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ericmcer 2y ago
Agree this seems like basic things you would figure out doing anything uncertain. The first blocked out quote of the article is: “If an experiment doesn’t go as expected, it doesn’t necessarily mean you did something wrong.” That’s why it's called an experiment… I don’t get why this is insightful. I guess there is a lesson about carefully noting down failures, in the corporate world handing over a document detailing all the things you tried that failed is much better than just failing silently.
- zik 2y ago
  In biochem results aren't "success" or "fail", they're more like "probably success" and "either fail or experimental error". And in research the vast majority of results are in the latter category so it can be hard to discriminate between failures of your hypothesis and failures in your experimental method.

by prashp 2y ago

JadeNB 2y ago

> This is just a regular PhD experience, but the author has made it sound like some special sort of skill only they and a few others know how to master. Making a regular experience sound like a special sort of skill only you have is itself a special sort of skill that it's valuable to have if you want to apply for grants.

authorfly 2y ago
How do you effectively apply to PhD grants, is it different to winning say Startup / Innovation grants?
- JadeNB 2y ago
  > How do you effectively apply to PhD grants, is it different to winning say Startup / Innovation grants? I'm afraid that I don't have the faintest idea, both because my grant activity hasn't been noticably effective (and I held no grants while pursuing my Ph.D.), and because I've never applied for a Startup / Innovation grant.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nxobject 2y ago

I don’t think she’s saying “only _I_ can do this!!” - it just read to me like a “this is a what happened and what I learned from it”. Actually, I think I’ll send this article to my high school physics teacher - he was a good mentor, and he might enjoy giving it to his students.

vikramkr 2y ago

That's not really true. They don't have to finish and graduate by the time funding runs out - nearly half of students simply fail to graduate (in the us). It's also extra untrue because this author is describing running into a null result and turning that into a PHD when usually null results don't go anywhere, either to a thesis or a publication. But it becomes true again in the context that the null result is nice framing for this article but isn't the framing in the intro/contents of the thesis. And also because: "A turning point came when another graduate student suggested a dramatic change to my protocol. I was skeptical, but I thought it was worth a shot. It turned out they were correct: After trying yet another experiment, the results started to look better—and after a few more changes, I eventually got the protocol to work. " doesn't sound like a failed experiment to me!

glitchc 2y ago
PhDs are more about perseverance than anything else, as highlighted in this story.
- vikramkr 2y ago
  well, also luck. Plenty of people have a PI change which can be devastating especially on a visa, or wouldn't have gotten the recommendation for the other protocol to get it to work, and also for the current crop - giant global pandemic shutting down all the labs - did you pick a topic that's essential research/not lab based? And strategy. If you chose a field based on passion instead of practical considerations like grant availability - life might be more complex in infectious disease research than in oncology lol. And academia politics. Though for some obviously politics is a plus
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - authorfly 2y ago
    Can you explain how you would determine or know about grant availability? Especially that "life might be more complex in infectious disease research than in oncology" - as an outsider this really caught my interest, I'd have imagined the two have similar levels of grants? Maybe more than a field like Psychology or Developmental Biology, about the same? Does this mean more people are going into in disease research because A) it's more interesting to them? (vs Oncology)... or B) The grants from COVID mean it's a better field?

peppertree 2y ago

I don't think the author was trying to position herself as "special". It's a pretty universal experience to try something unkonwn and feeling like a failure. I think the author is trying to convey that it's ok to feel that way.

mihaaly 2y ago

Why a failed experiment needs to be turned into success? The outcome of the research (experiment) could be both success and failure, right? That's why we study it, experiment with it, we do not know it yet, we want to see if it is as believed or not. The important is to grow the body of knowledge here - and knowing if something does not work the way we thought will is knowledge -, not to pretend being successful, right? For pretending there are countless other (much much better paying) occupations anyway.

gus_massa 2y ago
It's too easy to get unsuccesful results. (Does listening to Macarena for 8 hours per day cure brain cancer in mice?) So unsuccesful results are very difficult to publish and to be the base of a thesis. So you must find a twist or secondary result and make it the central part. (Does listening to Macarena for 8 hours per day cause brain damage in mice?)
- mihaaly 2y ago
  That's true. Also, I think I seen that Macarena article. : ) It suggested to extend the research to primates and Spice Girls and finding songs that cure the damage of Macarena.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ericmcer 2y ago

Agree this seems like basic things you would figure out doing anything uncertain. The first blocked out quote of the article is: “If an experiment doesn’t go as expected, it doesn’t necessarily mean you did something wrong.” That’s why it's called an experiment… I don’t get why this is insightful. I guess there is a lesson about carefully noting down failures, in the corporate world handing over a document detailing all the things you tried that failed is much better than just failing silently.

zik 2y ago
In biochem results aren't "success" or "fail", they're more like "probably success" and "either fail or experimental error". And in research the vast majority of results are in the latter category so it can be hard to discriminate between failures of your hypothesis and failures in your experimental method.