3 ms·

There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Mayb

by arp242 2y ago

There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Maybe-Pascal exclaimed loudly and with great confidence "A plus C equal B squared! Therefore God exists! COUNTER!" The other philosopher didn't know much about mathematics, had no idea to reply, got flustered, and "lost" the argument.[1] And honestly, I'm not sure I would have done better in the moment. On reflection? Sure. But in front of the king, presented with a completely unfamiliar argument stated with great confidence and demanding a reply? Yeah, maybe not. Even on topics where I have reasonable in-depth knowledge I sometimes really doubt myself when someone says something very wrong with great confidence, and sometimes I really double and triple-check things to make sure I'm not making a right fool of myself. Few years back I ordered a sandwich at a deli. Still looking at the menu, the lady asked what I wanted. "Ehhh, well, ehmm, I don't eat meat, so, ehhh, something without that". "Oh, I have chicken!" And she said this so quickly and with such confidence that for a few seconds I was genuinely doubting whether "chicken" was meat or not and wasn't really sure what to answer. I guess she had a bit of "a moment" and we had a laugh about it afterwards, but I thought that was a pretty interesting and harmless example of how you can really start doubting yourself. NFTs are another example. When I first heard of it, I thought I had not understood it correctly because "surely it can't be this dumb". And for months when all the NFT hype was raging I thought it must be some very complex crypto bonanza I wasn't really understanding. All the obscure jargon and lingo the NFT people confidently use aided that notion. I'm not really interested in crypto in general, but finally gave in and did some more in-depth reading on it. I found that no, it really is that dumb, and I had understood it correctly months ago, and all the jargon was just meaningless bollocks word salad. [1]: I read about this years and years ago, I can't find anything about it right now and this anecdote may be false, but it seemed trust-worthy enough at the time to remember.

Suppafly 2y ago
>I found that no, it really is that dumb, and I had understood it correctly months ago, and all the jargon was just meaningless bollocks word salad. My brother is an artist and absolutely refused to believe that the hype around NFTs was just bullshit. I'm sure if I called and asked right now, he'd still give me some word salad about how it's going to start paying off any day now. Now if anyone talks to me about NFTs, I send that me that Folding Ideas youtube video, 'Line goes up' and refuse to engage with them.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Now if anyone talks to me about NFTs, I send that me that Folding Ideas youtube video, 'Line goes up' and refuse to engage with them. When someone talks to you about a topic you don't want to engage in you send them a link to a 2.5 hour long video? I mean, can't the point be made in 3m?
  - singleshot_ 2y ago
    Making the point over and over and over for two and a half hours gives you time to run away and hide.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Well, it gets them out of your hair for 2.5 hours... Unless they don't bother to watch it. Then it gets them out of your hair permanently, because they know they're supposed to watch it before hassling you about it again.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    >I mean, can't the point be made in 3m? Honestly, it can be made as fast you can say 'NFTs are bullshit' but some people don't want to hear it from a friend or family member.
- scubbo 2y ago
  I have a friend who's still convinced that GameStop's going to the moon. Any day now...
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    The thing with GameStop being a meme stock is crazy. If they were smart they would have used their increased value to restructure the business and make it viable so that it would actually be worth what the stock is worth.
- r0s 2y ago
  Totally agree about NFTs, but any artist gets a full pass from me. Artists have it rough and I don't blame them for being charmed by con artists.
bbayles 2y ago
The story you're thinking of is about Leonhard Euler, though it may not have actually happened (see Wikipedia on Euler).
pilingual 2y ago
Why are NFTs dumb? How can I buy a digital asset sold by an artist?
- kaibee 2y ago
  Talk to one and get something commissioned, then sign a contract about what copyrights you're acquiring from them. NFTs provide none of those.
  - woah 2y ago
    Fine artists who are known in the international art market do not take commissions. They also do not give buyers of a piece copyright (obviously both of these things are even more true if they are dead). You also wouldn't be able to distinguish a fake painted for a few thousand dollars, much less so with a print or digital art, so the physical artifact is somewhat meaningless as well, at least as far as value goes. Collectors buy pieces and keep them in storage. They might buy a piece without ever laying eyes on the physical artifact. The art market has always run on provenance and certificates of authenticity. You could argue that fine art is bullshit, and you can also that a blockchain is not necessary to keep track of certificates of authenticity, but arguing that the entire concept of art ownership without copyright is bullshit is to ignore what the reality of the art market has always been.
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago
  NFTs are not a good solution to buying artwork. They are a novel concept, but translating that to conventional problems around ownership is difficult and probably not the best solution.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    They could be used by TicketMaster for tickets. That’s about the most realistic use case I could come up with.
    - Gormo 2y ago
nsguy 2y ago
I had a similar issue recently. Someone suggested a technical solution that based on my experience has zero chance of being correct. It was said with great confidence that makes me doubt my experience. Great confidence but zero supporting details or experience. For someone observing from the side there's no way to tell who is right and my double-take doubting my own experiences can appear to make the extremely confident but likely wrong person be the right one. For someone that really knows stuff, being 100% confident on nuanced/complex issues is very hard, you're used to moving forward with 90% or 80% or 95% confidence. I.e. you're very likely right, but there are can be surprises or something you didn't anticipate. For someone confident but wrong they have like 100% confidence for something that's 0% chance of success. As you say, this is a lot more difficult when you're put on the spot, e.g. the CEO might question what's the right decision in a meeting (the king in your example.). Often there's not enough time for a deep study and even after studying a problem it might still not be 100%. Tough situations to handle.
- diffxx 2y ago
  Yes, and there is an incentive problem too that people are rewarded for being decisive but rarely punished for being wrong. In many contexts the odds are really stacked against you if you have a strong opinion that deviates from the consensus which is perhaps why persistence is a trait that we valorize given that it does require real courage.
red_admiral 2y ago
Euler, not Pascal, but the story is most likely apocryphal anyway. See http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf , which contains a link to a PDF discussing (and dismissing) the original story, and is a nice read on its own.

by arp242 2y ago

Suppafly 2y ago

>I found that no, it really is that dumb, and I had understood it correctly months ago, and all the jargon was just meaningless bollocks word salad. My brother is an artist and absolutely refused to believe that the hype around NFTs was just bullshit. I'm sure if I called and asked right now, he'd still give me some word salad about how it's going to start paying off any day now. Now if anyone talks to me about NFTs, I send that me that Folding Ideas youtube video, 'Line goes up' and refuse to engage with them.

lelanthran 2y ago
> Now if anyone talks to me about NFTs, I send that me that Folding Ideas youtube video, 'Line goes up' and refuse to engage with them. When someone talks to you about a topic you don't want to engage in you send them a link to a 2.5 hour long video? I mean, can't the point be made in 3m?
- singleshot_ 2y ago
  Making the point over and over and over for two and a half hours gives you time to run away and hide.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Well, it gets them out of your hair for 2.5 hours... Unless they don't bother to watch it. Then it gets them out of your hair permanently, because they know they're supposed to watch it before hassling you about it again.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >I mean, can't the point be made in 3m? Honestly, it can be made as fast you can say 'NFTs are bullshit' but some people don't want to hear it from a friend or family member.
scubbo 2y ago
I have a friend who's still convinced that GameStop's going to the moon. Any day now...
- Suppafly 2y ago
  The thing with GameStop being a meme stock is crazy. If they were smart they would have used their increased value to restructure the business and make it viable so that it would actually be worth what the stock is worth.
r0s 2y ago
Totally agree about NFTs, but any artist gets a full pass from me. Artists have it rough and I don't blame them for being charmed by con artists.

bbayles 2y ago

The story you're thinking of is about Leonhard Euler, though it may not have actually happened (see Wikipedia on Euler).

pilingual 2y ago

Why are NFTs dumb? How can I buy a digital asset sold by an artist?

kaibee 2y ago
Talk to one and get something commissioned, then sign a contract about what copyrights you're acquiring from them. NFTs provide none of those.
- woah 2y ago
  Fine artists who are known in the international art market do not take commissions. They also do not give buyers of a piece copyright (obviously both of these things are even more true if they are dead). You also wouldn't be able to distinguish a fake painted for a few thousand dollars, much less so with a print or digital art, so the physical artifact is somewhat meaningless as well, at least as far as value goes. Collectors buy pieces and keep them in storage. They might buy a piece without ever laying eyes on the physical artifact. The art market has always run on provenance and certificates of authenticity. You could argue that fine art is bullshit, and you can also that a blockchain is not necessary to keep track of certificates of authenticity, but arguing that the entire concept of art ownership without copyright is bullshit is to ignore what the reality of the art market has always been.
knowaveragejoe 2y ago
NFTs are not a good solution to buying artwork. They are a novel concept, but translating that to conventional problems around ownership is difficult and probably not the best solution.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  They could be used by TicketMaster for tickets. That’s about the most realistic use case I could come up with.
  - Gormo 2y ago

nsguy 2y ago

I had a similar issue recently. Someone suggested a technical solution that based on my experience has zero chance of being correct. It was said with great confidence that makes me doubt my experience. Great confidence but zero supporting details or experience. For someone observing from the side there's no way to tell who is right and my double-take doubting my own experiences can appear to make the extremely confident but likely wrong person be the right one. For someone that really knows stuff, being 100% confident on nuanced/complex issues is very hard, you're used to moving forward with 90% or 80% or 95% confidence. I.e. you're very likely right, but there are can be surprises or something you didn't anticipate. For someone confident but wrong they have like 100% confidence for something that's 0% chance of success. As you say, this is a lot more difficult when you're put on the spot, e.g. the CEO might question what's the right decision in a meeting (the king in your example.). Often there's not enough time for a deep study and even after studying a problem it might still not be 100%. Tough situations to handle.

diffxx 2y ago
Yes, and there is an incentive problem too that people are rewarded for being decisive but rarely punished for being wrong. In many contexts the odds are really stacked against you if you have a strong opinion that deviates from the consensus which is perhaps why persistence is a trait that we valorize given that it does require real courage.

red_admiral 2y ago

Euler, not Pascal, but the story is most likely apocryphal anyway. See http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf , which contains a link to a PDF discussing (and dismissing) the original story, and is a nice read on its own.