4 ms·
There's a few related answers to your question, so I'm going to meander a bit and hope you can follow along. First off, backwards compatibility wasn't actually
by kmeisthax 2y ago
There's a few related answers to your question, so I'm going to meander a bit and hope you can follow along.
First off, backwards compatibility wasn't actually broken. X11 apps work fine under Xwayland. All the weird bikeshedding that happens in Wayland isn't as important because we have working compatibility bridges and all the old stuff still works.
Second, "don't break userspace" is specifically a Linux kernel policy. The only other organization in FOSS that has such a slavish devotion to backwards compatibility is WINE[0]. Desktop environments are perfectly fine with, at the very least, breaking ABIs, because you can just recompile the ocean. I suspect this is the Free Software equivalent of "firing shots to keep the rent down" - i.e. making the software neighborhood undesirable for proprietary software vendors who will have to deal with these annoying and arguably pointless transitions every couple of years.
The reason why we needed to get off X11 is very simple: X11 is an extremely poor fit for modern hardware. The protocol supports simple drawing commands and image display, that's about it. Modern user interfaces want applications that draw onto GPU layers, composite them, and then present a final image to a compositor to be displayed to the screen. You almost can build that on X11 (modulo some frame tearing), but it's a pain in the ass and requires adopting a lot of extra protocols plus XGL which breaks network transparency[1].
The motto of X11 is "mechanism, not policy". The way this is accomplished is by presenting the entire desktop as a tree structure of windows that any client can mutate. Any widget toolkit can then build the experience it wants on top of that tree structure. The problem is that this also makes writing keyloggers and RATs trivial. X11 doesn't sandbox applications, so even if you lock down a process every other way, they can still do horrible things to other X clients and Xorg won't stop them.
Wayland fixes this by tightly restricting what clients are allowed to do to the desktop. Applications get to present their own windows, sure, but they can't touch other windows unless a specific extension is provided for their use case and the compositor allows the application to use it. In other words, Wayland is "policy, not mechanism". The downside is that now we have to codify all the slightly-different ways each widget toolkit, window manager, and desktop environment has done things under X11. This has resulted in an explosion of extensions, many of which overlap because they were made by different DEs. Wayland can of course create standardized versions of these extensions, but each standardization is an opportunity for bikeshedding.
This leads into my favorite way to tell if an application is Wayland or X11: launch Xeyes. If the eyes track your mouse over the application's windows, it's X11. Wayland doesn't have a protocol for mouse tracking, so Xwayland can't report where the mouse cursor is, unless it's on top of a Wayland window that it's already getting events for - namely, the app you're wondering about.
Ok, I suppose that is a backwards compatibility break.
[0] This also means the most stable UI toolkit on Linux is actually USER.dll.
[1] In fact, I suspect this is why Wayland was so willing to casually toss that out. GPUs and network transparency are allergic to one another.
- drdaeman 2y agoI don't think that's the issue with Wayland. X11 has fundamental design flaws, Wayland happened because of it. I believe the question is why Wayland happened so badly. Sure, nVidia shenanigans are contributing to bad fame, but arguably that's not the issue with Wayland. However, Wayland fixes some of X11 design flaws but ignores others - or even introduces new ones. But, for example, HiDPI is a mess in X11 - for (I assume) pretty obvious reasons of not having HiDPI back in the day. Weirdly, Wayland does nothing to make things right - instead it just gives up on the DPI concept altogether as if physical dimensions simply aren't a thing[1]. While this sort of solves some of the issues X11 had (although, scaling works with X11 too), it's just wrong. Then there are a bunch of other controversial design decisions (like client-side decorations - as if consistency wasn't a problem already) that are more nuanced. ___ 1) Or so I believe - I could be wrong. I just wanted to configure DPI for my monitors hoping that it would help me to have things sized correctly, and have read somewhere that it's not a thing in Wayland and all they have is scale factors.
- ndiddy 2y agoWayland happened so badly compared to e.g. the Systemd transition or the Pipewire transition because it was developed by Xorg developers who had spent years dealing with its complexity and countless regressions caused by bugfixes breaking obscure behavior that clients depended on. As a result, they swung too far in the other direction. They came out with a minimal protocol where all the heavy lifting was done in each compositor rather than having a single common implementation. Most importantly, the base protocol was completely unsuitable for nontrivial programs. Features such as screen sharing, remote desktop, non-integer scaling, screen tearing, or even placing a window in a certain position were not supported. Because Wayland's base protocol was unable to replace X11, virtually nobody adopted it when it was initially released in 2008. The subsequent 16 years have been taken up by a grueling process of contributors from various desktop environments proposing protocol extensions to make Wayland a workable solution for their users. This has resulted in endless bikeshedding and requires compromise between different stakeholders who have fundamentally different viewpoints on what the Linux desktop should even be (GNOME vs everyone else). As an example, the process for allowing a client to position its own windows has been ongoing for over two years, and has led to multiple proposed protocol extensions with hundreds of comments on each. The transition would have been much smoother if Wayland had the same "mechanism over policy" philosophy as X11 and allowed for software to easily be ported to it, but long-term that could have caused the same issues that the Xorg maintainers were facing when they created Wayland.