4 ms·

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D

chollida1 2y ago
wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_Population_density_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P... And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQzNDI*MTEyMTYxMTY(MzgzMzMwMw~!CONTIGUOUS_US*MTAwMjQwNzU.MjUwMjM1MTc(MTc1)MQ~!IN*NTI2NDA1MQ.Nzg2MzQyMQ)MA~!CN*OTkyMTY5Nw.NzMxNDcwNQ(MjI1)Mg~!DE*NzI1OTA3Mw.MTQ3NzU4NzI)Mw https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ... I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution. And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're only 282.6 km apart. A 10cm^2 cross section of aluminium between them would have a resistance of 7.3 Ω, and even when bought from the first random supplier I found on Amazon that would only cost about €14m: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%2F+%281cm%5E2+%2F+282.6+kilometers%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%... https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-Sizes/dp/B08DL45LN8/ref=sr_1_8?crid=13CN4GR3Z5MWJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ib9dVOLKFEqf19ZSxYeeqDTWTLf9JJ13x8bEycwybbfUIqzZ-d3-zoK2u0pNOW3XOCZIsLhrnBaq51Q4oKrJPFgBSfGLSuE_QA0-gANxQOJQaiLzmoEwUGr8pnq4dS6RY_yW37cGJoItLZBR6XG7gCmimT8fay4hgtd8869CehTN3921eqnGxp2-GSiUPnah9mapzhwQWDjpY7WuF7nnIpUMggFP408Xl-1S6CMQF2FKZeD3iR_CNhVSReLemG9LloZA3BFi6a4zmVpXZL2FWgmu0dt6OqhpFZoiBrr1QsE.Xua0QzZGnJvDm0yHUO-3XgPO_1Cc-FKhBza4GnXCCDY&dib_tag=se&keywords=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm&qid=1720459230&sprefix=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-8&th=1 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-S... https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2Fm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2... It would be about 12% of that price, €1.7m, if bought at bulk rates: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm%5E2+*+density+aluminium+*+price+aluminium https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm... At 1e6 V, 12.7 GW is 12.7 kA; I^2R losses over a 7.3 Ω link for that current is 1.18 GW: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2+*+7.3+ohm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2... -- But even without any of that, there is one very important point you've overlooked: Alberta has already got a power grid.
  - chollida1 2y ago
    Appreciate the response but I'll be honest I don't understand what point you are making. My only point is that Alberta being larger than Germany means its more expensive to deliver power to all its various small towns distributed around the province. That seems pretty tautologically correct to me given that power lines have a cost and must be constantly maintained and built to support new power demands. I'm unsure about what the cross section of aluminum has to do with the size of a province, but i'm willing to learn:) Run a simple thought experiment. Would it be easier to deliver power 100 meters or 100 km's? That's what we are debating here.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Run a simple thought experiment. Would it be easier to deliver power 100 meters or 100 km's? That's what we are debating here. What you're debating is the cost of using a grid that already exists and is already in use. > I'm unsure about what the cross section of aluminum has to do with the size of a province, The answer is right there in the same post. Multiply them together to find out how much material you need (and by extension cost); likewise resistive losses. The material costs for making an extremely efficient grid are trivial compared to everything else involved in the supply of energy that already exists and has already connected all those "various small towns distributed around the province". -- Also, I demonstrated with my maps that if you put a copy of the German borders around the Calgary-Edmonton conurbation, you'd get almost the entire population of Alberta, so your stat is misleading.
    - skiexperte 2y ago
      We currently transport already energy from big producers to small towns left and right. Solar Energy reduces the load of the grid because the renewable energy will be consumed locally first. This puts less strain on it.
      - Teever 2y ago
        But you will still need to maintain a grid that's sized to handle situations when there's no solar.
KennyBlanken 2y ago
There's plenty of land in cities. Rooftops and solar canopies (parking lots with solar panels over them) for example. Solar canopies can even go above outdoor public transit lines. They're all over the place in my area. I've seen them in church parking lots, supermarkets, you name it. Added benefit: you and your car are shaded from sun, snow, rain..
- adrianN 2y ago
  It's a lot more expensive to put panels on roofs than to put them on a meadow somewhere.
  - Teever 2y ago
    So settle on something in the middle -- cover parking lots.

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D

chollida1 2y ago

wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.

ben_w 2y ago
Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_Population_density_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P... And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQzNDI*MTEyMTYxMTY(MzgzMzMwMw~!CONTIGUOUS_US*MTAwMjQwNzU.MjUwMjM1MTc(MTc1)MQ~!IN*NTI2NDA1MQ.Nzg2MzQyMQ)MA~!CN*OTkyMTY5Nw.NzMxNDcwNQ(MjI1)Mg~!DE*NzI1OTA3Mw.MTQ3NzU4NzI)Mw https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ... I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution. And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're only 282.6 km apart. A 10cm^2 cross section of aluminium between them would have a resistance of 7.3 Ω, and even when bought from the first random supplier I found on Amazon that would only cost about €14m: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%2F+%281cm%5E2+%2F+282.6+kilometers%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%... https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-Sizes/dp/B08DL45LN8/ref=sr_1_8?crid=13CN4GR3Z5MWJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ib9dVOLKFEqf19ZSxYeeqDTWTLf9JJ13x8bEycwybbfUIqzZ-d3-zoK2u0pNOW3XOCZIsLhrnBaq51Q4oKrJPFgBSfGLSuE_QA0-gANxQOJQaiLzmoEwUGr8pnq4dS6RY_yW37cGJoItLZBR6XG7gCmimT8fay4hgtd8869CehTN3921eqnGxp2-GSiUPnah9mapzhwQWDjpY7WuF7nnIpUMggFP408Xl-1S6CMQF2FKZeD3iR_CNhVSReLemG9LloZA3BFi6a4zmVpXZL2FWgmu0dt6OqhpFZoiBrr1QsE.Xua0QzZGnJvDm0yHUO-3XgPO_1Cc-FKhBza4GnXCCDY&dib_tag=se&keywords=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm&qid=1720459230&sprefix=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-8&th=1 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-S... https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2Fm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2... It would be about 12% of that price, €1.7m, if bought at bulk rates: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm%5E2+*+density+aluminium+*+price+aluminium https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm... At 1e6 V, 12.7 GW is 12.7 kA; I^2R losses over a 7.3 Ω link for that current is 1.18 GW: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2+*+7.3+ohm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2... -- But even without any of that, there is one very important point you've overlooked: Alberta has already got a power grid.
- chollida1 2y ago
  Appreciate the response but I'll be honest I don't understand what point you are making. My only point is that Alberta being larger than Germany means its more expensive to deliver power to all its various small towns distributed around the province. That seems pretty tautologically correct to me given that power lines have a cost and must be constantly maintained and built to support new power demands. I'm unsure about what the cross section of aluminum has to do with the size of a province, but i'm willing to learn:) Run a simple thought experiment. Would it be easier to deliver power 100 meters or 100 km's? That's what we are debating here.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Run a simple thought experiment. Would it be easier to deliver power 100 meters or 100 km's? That's what we are debating here. What you're debating is the cost of using a grid that already exists and is already in use. > I'm unsure about what the cross section of aluminum has to do with the size of a province, The answer is right there in the same post. Multiply them together to find out how much material you need (and by extension cost); likewise resistive losses. The material costs for making an extremely efficient grid are trivial compared to everything else involved in the supply of energy that already exists and has already connected all those "various small towns distributed around the province". -- Also, I demonstrated with my maps that if you put a copy of the German borders around the Calgary-Edmonton conurbation, you'd get almost the entire population of Alberta, so your stat is misleading.
  - skiexperte 2y ago
    We currently transport already energy from big producers to small towns left and right. Solar Energy reduces the load of the grid because the renewable energy will be consumed locally first. This puts less strain on it.
    - Teever 2y ago
      But you will still need to maintain a grid that's sized to handle situations when there's no solar.

KennyBlanken 2y ago

There's plenty of land in cities. Rooftops and solar canopies (parking lots with solar panels over them) for example. Solar canopies can even go above outdoor public transit lines. They're all over the place in my area. I've seen them in church parking lots, supermarkets, you name it. Added benefit: you and your car are shaded from sun, snow, rain..

adrianN 2y ago
It's a lot more expensive to put panels on roofs than to put them on a meadow somewhere.
- Teever 2y ago
  So settle on something in the middle -- cover parking lots.