4 ms·

It seems straightforward but it isn't. Alberta is about twice the size of Germany, 50% larger than California and has a meager population of 4.3 million spread

by Teever 2y ago

It seems straightforward but it isn't. Alberta is about twice the size of Germany, 50% larger than California and has a meager population of 4.3 million spread out across that area.With a latitude that ranges from 48' to 60' and a wide variety of geography there's a range of availability in solar and wind. Alberta politics is also a factor. Alberta is a complete aberration in North American democracy in that more or less one party have been in power there for over 50 years. While the party has always been blatantly pro O&G industry at the expense of everything else when they issued an unexpected moratorium on a solar and wind projects last year. This has thrown the renewable industry in Alberta into chaos and has likely damaged investor confidence in Alberta for decades[0] https://www.theenergymix.com/tsunami-engulfs-alberta-renewables-as-provincial-moratorium-unsettles-sector/ https://www.theenergymix.com/tsunami-engulfs-alberta-renewab...

energy123 2y ago
Being larger isn't a disadvantage. Wind correlation drops exponentially as a function of distance. Land use becomes a non issue.
- octocop 2y ago
  >Wind correlation drops exponentially as a function of distance. By what principle? I'm just curious, first time I'm hearing this.
  - 7thaccount 2y ago
    They just mean if you have geographical diversity, it helps with the availability of renewables. For example, if wind is in 5 different locations across Alberta (for sake of example), you're less likely to run into issues with losing it all at once like you would if all your wind came from a single area and the wind stopped blowing there or dropped to a very low value.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Yeah but the downside to that in a place the size of Alberta is that you need to run electrical infrastructure that can handle the load of 4.3 million people across a 1000km distance.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        Sounds like Sweden or Norway, not very hard to do.
    - energy123 2y ago
      Yeah, and notably it's exponential in distance, not linear. There's also a diversification benefit for solar due to two reasons, one reason is rainfall is less likely to impact a large land mass at the same time, second is the sunset occurs at different times so you can have a one hour window to offset the evening peak of the other side of the country and vice versa in the morning. Although I don't believe these benefits are exponential as they are for wind.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- chollida1 2y ago
  > Being larger isn't a disadvantage. It most certainly is for distribution and generation near population density.
  - jes5199 2y ago
    the nice thing about solar is that it's naturally diffuse, it's actually more effort to push it into a dense urban area than to have it spread over a rural place
  - skiexperte 2y ago
    Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D
    - chollida1 2y ago
      wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_Population_density_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P... And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQzNDI*MTEyMTYxMTY(MzgzMzMwMw~!CONTIGUOUS_US*MTAwMjQwNzU.MjUwMjM1MTc(MTc1)MQ~!IN*NTI2NDA1MQ.Nzg2MzQyMQ)MA~!CN*OTkyMTY5Nw.NzMxNDcwNQ(MjI1)Mg~!DE*NzI1OTA3Mw.MTQ3NzU4NzI)Mw https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ... I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution. And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're only 282.6 km apart. A 10cm^2 cross section of aluminium between them would have a resistance of 7.3 Ω, and even when bought from the first random supplier I found on Amazon that would only cost about €14m: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%2F+%281cm%5E2+%2F+282.6+kilometers%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%... https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-Sizes/dp/B08DL45LN8/ref=sr_1_8?crid=13CN4GR3Z5MWJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ib9dVOLKFEqf19ZSxYeeqDTWTLf9JJ13x8bEycwybbfUIqzZ-d3-zoK2u0pNOW3XOCZIsLhrnBaq51Q4oKrJPFgBSfGLSuE_QA0-gANxQOJQaiLzmoEwUGr8pnq4dS6RY_yW37cGJoItLZBR6XG7gCmimT8fay4hgtd8869CehTN3921eqnGxp2-GSiUPnah9mapzhwQWDjpY7WuF7nnIpUMggFP408Xl-1S6CMQF2FKZeD3iR_CNhVSReLemG9LloZA3BFi6a4zmVpXZL2FWgmu0dt6OqhpFZoiBrr1QsE.Xua0QzZGnJvDm0yHUO-3XgPO_1Cc-FKhBza4GnXCCDY&dib_tag=se&keywords=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm&qid=1720459230&sprefix=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-8&th=1 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-S... https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2Fm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2... It would be about 12% of that price, €1.7m, if bought at bulk rates: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm%5E2+*+density+aluminium+*+price+aluminium https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm... At 1e6 V, 12.7 GW is 12.7 kA; I^2R losses over a 7.3 Ω link for that current is 1.18 GW: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2+*+7.3+ohm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2... -- But even without any of that, there is one very important point you've overlooked: Alberta has already got a power grid.
1over137 2y ago
>Alberta is a complete aberration in North American democracy Hmm, seems to me several US states have been the same: Vermont, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Idaho...
DowagerDave 2y ago
>> more or less one party have been in power there for over 50 years. you know we had a majority left-leaning (NDP) government < 10 years ago, right? The province splits pretty predictably between Calgary, Edmonton and Rural.
- randomdata 2y ago
  The bigger problem with the comment is that said party threw in the towel in 2020. How they managed to enact something last year from the dead is a head scratcher.

by Teever 2y ago

energy123 2y ago

Being larger isn't a disadvantage. Wind correlation drops exponentially as a function of distance. Land use becomes a non issue.

octocop 2y ago
>Wind correlation drops exponentially as a function of distance. By what principle? I'm just curious, first time I'm hearing this.
- 7thaccount 2y ago
  They just mean if you have geographical diversity, it helps with the availability of renewables. For example, if wind is in 5 different locations across Alberta (for sake of example), you're less likely to run into issues with losing it all at once like you would if all your wind came from a single area and the wind stopped blowing there or dropped to a very low value.
  - Teever 2y ago
    Yeah but the downside to that in a place the size of Alberta is that you need to run electrical infrastructure that can handle the load of 4.3 million people across a 1000km distance.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Sounds like Sweden or Norway, not very hard to do.
  - energy123 2y ago
    Yeah, and notably it's exponential in distance, not linear. There's also a diversification benefit for solar due to two reasons, one reason is rainfall is less likely to impact a large land mass at the same time, second is the sunset occurs at different times so you can have a one hour window to offset the evening peak of the other side of the country and vice versa in the morning. Although I don't believe these benefits are exponential as they are for wind.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
chollida1 2y ago
> Being larger isn't a disadvantage. It most certainly is for distribution and generation near population density.
- jes5199 2y ago
  the nice thing about solar is that it's naturally diffuse, it's actually more effort to push it into a dense urban area than to have it spread over a rural place
- skiexperte 2y ago
  Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D
  - chollida1 2y ago
    wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_Population_density_map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P... And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQzNDI*MTEyMTYxMTY(MzgzMzMwMw~!CONTIGUOUS_US*MTAwMjQwNzU.MjUwMjM1MTc(MTc1)MQ~!IN*NTI2NDA1MQ.Nzg2MzQyMQ)MA~!CN*OTkyMTY5Nw.NzMxNDcwNQ(MjI1)Mg~!DE*NzI1OTA3Mw.MTQ3NzU4NzI)Mw https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ... I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution. And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're only 282.6 km apart. A 10cm^2 cross section of aluminium between them would have a resistance of 7.3 Ω, and even when bought from the first random supplier I found on Amazon that would only cost about €14m: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%2F+%281cm%5E2+%2F+282.6+kilometers%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%... https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-Sizes/dp/B08DL45LN8/ref=sr_1_8?crid=13CN4GR3Z5MWJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ib9dVOLKFEqf19ZSxYeeqDTWTLf9JJ13x8bEycwybbfUIqzZ-d3-zoK2u0pNOW3XOCZIsLhrnBaq51Q4oKrJPFgBSfGLSuE_QA0-gANxQOJQaiLzmoEwUGr8pnq4dS6RY_yW37cGJoItLZBR6XG7gCmimT8fay4hgtd8869CehTN3921eqnGxp2-GSiUPnah9mapzhwQWDjpY7WuF7nnIpUMggFP408Xl-1S6CMQF2FKZeD3iR_CNhVSReLemG9LloZA3BFi6a4zmVpXZL2FWgmu0dt6OqhpFZoiBrr1QsE.Xua0QzZGnJvDm0yHUO-3XgPO_1Cc-FKhBza4GnXCCDY&dib_tag=se&keywords=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm&qid=1720459230&sprefix=aluminium%2Brod%2B10mm%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-8&th=1 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-S... https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2Fm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2... It would be about 12% of that price, €1.7m, if bought at bulk rates: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm%5E2+*+density+aluminium+*+price+aluminium https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm... At 1e6 V, 12.7 GW is 12.7 kA; I^2R losses over a 7.3 Ω link for that current is 1.18 GW: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2+*+7.3+ohm https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2... -- But even without any of that, there is one very important point you've overlooked: Alberta has already got a power grid.

1over137 2y ago

>Alberta is a complete aberration in North American democracy Hmm, seems to me several US states have been the same: Vermont, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Idaho...

DowagerDave 2y ago

>> more or less one party have been in power there for over 50 years. you know we had a majority left-leaning (NDP) government < 10 years ago, right? The province splits pretty predictably between Calgary, Edmonton and Rural.

randomdata 2y ago
The bigger problem with the comment is that said party threw in the towel in 2020. How they managed to enact something last year from the dead is a head scratcher.