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I believe reasoning is (sufficiently advanced) syntactic templating and statistical autocomplete. Reminder that syntactic transformations are Turing complete:

I believe reasoning is (sufficiently advanced) syntactic templating and statistical autocomplete. Reminder that syntactic transformations are Turing complete: https://wiki.c2.com/?RewriteRules https://wiki.c2.com/?RewriteRules

enord 2y ago
That’s neither here nor there. Everything can be statistically modelled but very few things are reasoning. Same with turing machines.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Speaking of reasoning, how do you know what is happening inside the mind when it "reasons"? And while you're at it: what is happening inside the mind when it reasons?
  - enord 2y ago
    These are very good questions that deserve unequivocal answers. Alas…
    - mistermann 2y ago
      And here we've encountered the taboo. Best pretend not, kick the can down the road, and hope for the best. That will surely produce good results.
      - enord 2y ago
        Ah yes, the taboo of sound reasoning.
        mistermann 2y ago
        The Reasoner analyzes its reasoning and finds it...sound! Case closed, terminate all thought processes.
EncomLab 2y ago
In no way does "Turing Completeness" imply the ability to reason - I mean it's like arguing that a nightlight "reasons" about if it is dark out or not.
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  However, if reason is computable, then a syntactic transformation can compute it. The point is that stating that something is a "mere" syntactic transformation does not imply computational weakness.
- thornewolf 2y ago
  that argument is valid, however simple the reasoning may be.
- naasking 2y ago
  > In no way does "Turing Completeness" imply the ability to reason Unless you believe in magic, then yes, it does. A system that is Turing Complete absolutely can be programmed to reason, aka it has the ability to reason.
  - riku_iki 2y ago
    > A system that is Turing Complete absolutely can be programmed to reason, aka it has the ability to reason. you can write C program which can reason, but C compiler can't reason. So, program part is missing between "Turing Completeness" and reasoning, and it is very non-trivial part.
    - naasking 2y ago
      Given "reasoning" is still undefined, I would not go so far as to claim that a C compiler is not reasoning. What if a C compiler's semantic analysis pass is a limited form of reasoning? Furthermore, the C compiler can do a lot more than you think. The P99/metalang99 macro toolkits give the preprocessor enough state space to encode and run an LLM, in principle.

enord 2y ago

That’s neither here nor there. Everything can be statistically modelled but very few things are reasoning. Same with turing machines.

mistermann 2y ago
Speaking of reasoning, how do you know what is happening inside the mind when it "reasons"? And while you're at it: what is happening inside the mind when it reasons?
- enord 2y ago
  These are very good questions that deserve unequivocal answers. Alas…
  - mistermann 2y ago
    And here we've encountered the taboo. Best pretend not, kick the can down the road, and hope for the best. That will surely produce good results.
    - enord 2y ago
      Ah yes, the taboo of sound reasoning.
      - mistermann 2y ago
        The Reasoner analyzes its reasoning and finds it...sound! Case closed, terminate all thought processes.

EncomLab 2y ago

In no way does "Turing Completeness" imply the ability to reason - I mean it's like arguing that a nightlight "reasons" about if it is dark out or not.

FeepingCreature 2y ago
However, if reason is computable, then a syntactic transformation can compute it. The point is that stating that something is a "mere" syntactic transformation does not imply computational weakness.
thornewolf 2y ago
that argument is valid, however simple the reasoning may be.
naasking 2y ago
> In no way does "Turing Completeness" imply the ability to reason Unless you believe in magic, then yes, it does. A system that is Turing Complete absolutely can be programmed to reason, aka it has the ability to reason.
- riku_iki 2y ago
  > A system that is Turing Complete absolutely can be programmed to reason, aka it has the ability to reason. you can write C program which can reason, but C compiler can't reason. So, program part is missing between "Turing Completeness" and reasoning, and it is very non-trivial part.
  - naasking 2y ago
    Given "reasoning" is still undefined, I would not go so far as to claim that a C compiler is not reasoning. What if a C compiler's semantic analysis pass is a limited form of reasoning? Furthermore, the C compiler can do a lot more than you think. The P99/metalang99 macro toolkits give the preprocessor enough state space to encode and run an LLM, in principle.