5 ms·

> Intel started using automated place and route techniques for the 386 processor, since it was much faster than manual layout and dramatically reduced the numbe

> Intel started using automated place and route techniques for the 386 processor, since it was much faster than manual layout and dramatically reduced the number of errors. Placement was done with a program called Timberwolf, developed by a Berkeley grad student. As one member of the 386 team said, "If management had known that we were using a tool by some grad student as a key part of the methodology, they would never have let us use it." The grad student was Carl Sechen, advised by Alberto Sangiovanni-Vincentelli. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1052337 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1052337

andai 2y ago
"At Intel, nobody knows you're a grad student."
- justinjlynn 2y ago
  At Intel, nobody pays the grad student proportionally for their massive contribution to the bottom line.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Hikikomori 2y ago
      You're funny.
    - account42 2y ago
      Aka how to let the world be run by those who seek profit for themselves without consideration about the negative externalities.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        How to let the world be populated by people who can make free decisions about their work and their employer. Nothing to do with negative externalities, unless you think feudalism was particularly green.
        analognoise 2y ago
        The two sides (A grad student, Intel) are not operating on an equal field. As such the "free decisions" aren't really a valid dimension for "free dimensions", as we have to include how unfair the field is in this case (...in all cases). Intel did 152 BILLION DOLLARS in stock buybacks over 35 years and ruined their own lead. They screwed/squeezed a lot of people so they could juice the stock price - to the point where they lost the semiconductor lead (as that wasn't what they were most worried about - they were mostly concerned with stock price). We need to consider all of these things when we determine if the field is fair for an employee.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Of course it's not equal - it shouldn't be. If you want to be able to seriously negotiate with Intel as an equal, you have to do a lot more than be a grad student. But it's free. Which it should be.
        analognoise 2y ago
        We set the market, and should be equalizing the power between the two with regulation. Extensive regulation.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Why would one grad student have the same power as 10000 employees of a company? Surely when you're finishing with ominous repetition you must know something's a bit off[0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
chasil 2y ago
The Computer History Museum has an interview with the i386 designers, where this arrangement was discussed. Carl Sechen's name is not mentioned. https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Intel_386_Design_and_Dev/102702019.05.01.acc.pdf https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_Hist... "...we finally made the decision that we should go with automatic place and route. Neither one of those things existed at Intel and the concern was could we get it done in time and would it blow up the areas of the chip so that they wouldn’t fit and then it would all fall apart and we’d have to do it by hand. So what we did, we got an automatic placement program from a grad student at Berkeley, it was called Timberwolf and we checked it out and it seemed to do an adequate job so we had his software. He moved to MIT to work on another project and we actually had a terminal set up in his campus room where he’d fix bugs in the auto placement program as they came up. But luckily the whole thing came together and worked. There are several points in time where we’d get stuck and have to be waiting for him to fix his program. So that would take the individual cells and put them within a rectangle in an optimal situation for speed. "...I was just going point out that if management had known that we were using a tool by some grad student as the key part of the methodology, they would never have let us use it." EDIT: I didn't realize that Right-o had an article on i386 place and route with standard cells that also links to the panel interview. The specific areas of the i386 die that used standard cells are identified. https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html
- oldgradstudent 2y ago
  Weird that nobody bothered to do a simple google search. "Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They just made a terrible life choice."

andai 2y ago

"At Intel, nobody knows you're a grad student."

justinjlynn 2y ago
At Intel, nobody pays the grad student proportionally for their massive contribution to the bottom line.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    You're funny.
  - account42 2y ago
    Aka how to let the world be run by those who seek profit for themselves without consideration about the negative externalities.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      How to let the world be populated by people who can make free decisions about their work and their employer. Nothing to do with negative externalities, unless you think feudalism was particularly green.
      - analognoise 2y ago
        The two sides (A grad student, Intel) are not operating on an equal field. As such the "free decisions" aren't really a valid dimension for "free dimensions", as we have to include how unfair the field is in this case (...in all cases). Intel did 152 BILLION DOLLARS in stock buybacks over 35 years and ruined their own lead. They screwed/squeezed a lot of people so they could juice the stock price - to the point where they lost the semiconductor lead (as that wasn't what they were most worried about - they were mostly concerned with stock price). We need to consider all of these things when we determine if the field is fair for an employee.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Of course it's not equal - it shouldn't be. If you want to be able to seriously negotiate with Intel as an equal, you have to do a lot more than be a grad student. But it's free. Which it should be.
        analognoise 2y ago
        We set the market, and should be equalizing the power between the two with regulation. Extensive regulation.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Why would one grad student have the same power as 10000 employees of a company? Surely when you're finishing with ominous repetition you must know something's a bit off[0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

chasil 2y ago

The Computer History Museum has an interview with the i386 designers, where this arrangement was discussed. Carl Sechen's name is not mentioned. https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Intel_386_Design_and_Dev/102702019.05.01.acc.pdf https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_Hist... "...we finally made the decision that we should go with automatic place and route. Neither one of those things existed at Intel and the concern was could we get it done in time and would it blow up the areas of the chip so that they wouldn’t fit and then it would all fall apart and we’d have to do it by hand. So what we did, we got an automatic placement program from a grad student at Berkeley, it was called Timberwolf and we checked it out and it seemed to do an adequate job so we had his software. He moved to MIT to work on another project and we actually had a terminal set up in his campus room where he’d fix bugs in the auto placement program as they came up. But luckily the whole thing came together and worked. There are several points in time where we’d get stuck and have to be waiting for him to fix his program. So that would take the individual cells and put them within a rectangle in an optimal situation for speed. "...I was just going point out that if management had known that we were using a tool by some grad student as the key part of the methodology, they would never have let us use it." EDIT: I didn't realize that Right-o had an article on i386 place and route with standard cells that also links to the panel interview. The specific areas of the i386 die that used standard cells are identified. https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html

oldgradstudent 2y ago
Weird that nobody bothered to do a simple google search. "Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They just made a terrible life choice."