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How long is your resume on paper? Should be 2 pages at most. How many positions have you had in that 20 year span? What makes you believe it is ageism? In the U

How long is your resume on paper? Should be 2 pages at most. How many positions have you had in that 20 year span? What makes you believe it is ageism? In the US, workers 'over 40' are in a protected class for their age. If you have evidence of ageism, you can bring it to your local Dept of Labor/EEOC.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
How could you possibly get evidence for it if it is the case?
- User23 2y ago
  Not only that but even if you somehow prove it, no lawyer will take the case for actual damages. So the discrimination has to be so egregious that there’s a high likelihood that a jury will award punitive damages and that they will survive appeal.
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    In Washington State, the Human Rights Commission (not DoL, my bad) performs the investigation and brings forward a case to an administrative law judge. The applicant would not need a lawyer. However, the applicant can bring forward a civil case, if they wish. The lawyer, in a civil case, should already have all of the evidence they need gathered by the HRC. States, countries, etc. will differ of course. I do wonder what it'd be like to have something proved and to have an administrative judge tell the company to hire you anyway... Wouldn't that be super uncomfortable?
- dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  Here is a practical test. Make 2 resumes, with 2 different names, one with more experience. Apply, and you wait for the responses, you will have your answer. Even better, change the gender you will see a bias.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    Don't they check linkedin, basic googling, social media etc, before following up on that? I would imagine that would be fairly automatic. And you'd need to have much bigger sample size than 2.
    - dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
      >Don't they check linkedin, basic googling, social media etc, before following up on that I think some do, but probably most don't. Agreed a sample size of more than 2 is better but it will take enormous resources to create those resumes and matching profiles elsewhere in linkedin etc.
lowbloodsugar 2y ago
“If you have any evidence of ageism…” Can you give me an example of such evidence? Specifically evidence that would succeed in court? Like do you think managers write down why they didn’t hire a person, and even if they did, they would type “Too old” (“too black”, “too female”) into such a system? I have personally witnessed promotion discussion where the most senior manager thought someone should be rated the lowest (which leads to firing) because an engineer was “missing” for a large part of the year, yet was not ignorant of the fact that it was for a legally protected reason. Only after being called out by an engineer (not another manager) did the language change and the rating begrudgingly increased by one. None of the discussion was recorded in any way. I have witnessed similar discussions that boiled down to “person is female”, “person is neurodiverse” or essentially “person is not like me and my clique”. It staggers me that large corporations are not legally required to record all such meetings - and of course it doesn’t stagger me because the USA is full of “feel good“ laws that are utterly unenforceable by design.
- FrenchDevRemote 2y ago
  I've worked closed to people that were interviewing SWEs, including people I would consider old, age was never the problem. It was either: A. This guy is worth twice our maximum budget B. He's used to technical stacks that have absolutely nothing to do with ours C. New grads perform better at leetcode than him(not saying that's a good metric, but that's not ageism) D. Culture fit.
  - goosejuice 2y ago
    [dead]
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > Culture fit. This is the biggest place where all kinds of biases slip in, including ageism. Culture is tied up in all of the protected classes, and any time that you hear "culture fit" used as a justification for turning someone down alarm bells should be going off. The legitimate uses of "culture fit" as a filter should be itemized rather than lumped together: "he doesn't deal well with ambiguity", "she doesn't like frequent interruptions", whatever. Just talking about "culture fit" in the abstract is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

mewpmewp2 2y ago

How could you possibly get evidence for it if it is the case?

User23 2y ago
Not only that but even if you somehow prove it, no lawyer will take the case for actual damages. So the discrimination has to be so egregious that there’s a high likelihood that a jury will award punitive damages and that they will survive appeal.
- nullindividual 2y ago
  In Washington State, the Human Rights Commission (not DoL, my bad) performs the investigation and brings forward a case to an administrative law judge. The applicant would not need a lawyer. However, the applicant can bring forward a civil case, if they wish. The lawyer, in a civil case, should already have all of the evidence they need gathered by the HRC. States, countries, etc. will differ of course. I do wonder what it'd be like to have something proved and to have an administrative judge tell the company to hire you anyway... Wouldn't that be super uncomfortable?
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
Here is a practical test. Make 2 resumes, with 2 different names, one with more experience. Apply, and you wait for the responses, you will have your answer. Even better, change the gender you will see a bias.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  Don't they check linkedin, basic googling, social media etc, before following up on that? I would imagine that would be fairly automatic. And you'd need to have much bigger sample size than 2.
  - dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
    >Don't they check linkedin, basic googling, social media etc, before following up on that I think some do, but probably most don't. Agreed a sample size of more than 2 is better but it will take enormous resources to create those resumes and matching profiles elsewhere in linkedin etc.

lowbloodsugar 2y ago

“If you have any evidence of ageism…” Can you give me an example of such evidence? Specifically evidence that would succeed in court? Like do you think managers write down why they didn’t hire a person, and even if they did, they would type “Too old” (“too black”, “too female”) into such a system? I have personally witnessed promotion discussion where the most senior manager thought someone should be rated the lowest (which leads to firing) because an engineer was “missing” for a large part of the year, yet was not ignorant of the fact that it was for a legally protected reason. Only after being called out by an engineer (not another manager) did the language change and the rating begrudgingly increased by one. None of the discussion was recorded in any way. I have witnessed similar discussions that boiled down to “person is female”, “person is neurodiverse” or essentially “person is not like me and my clique”. It staggers me that large corporations are not legally required to record all such meetings - and of course it doesn’t stagger me because the USA is full of “feel good“ laws that are utterly unenforceable by design.

FrenchDevRemote 2y ago
I've worked closed to people that were interviewing SWEs, including people I would consider old, age was never the problem. It was either: A. This guy is worth twice our maximum budget B. He's used to technical stacks that have absolutely nothing to do with ours C. New grads perform better at leetcode than him(not saying that's a good metric, but that's not ageism) D. Culture fit.
- goosejuice 2y ago
  [dead]
- lolinder 2y ago
  > Culture fit. This is the biggest place where all kinds of biases slip in, including ageism. Culture is tied up in all of the protected classes, and any time that you hear "culture fit" used as a justification for turning someone down alarm bells should be going off. The legitimate uses of "culture fit" as a filter should be itemized rather than lumped together: "he doesn't deal well with ambiguity", "she doesn't like frequent interruptions", whatever. Just talking about "culture fit" in the abstract is a lawsuit waiting to happen.