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> It's really difficult to be isolated in a high stress environment. Mars seems more like a high boredom environment. It's a dead planet where nothing more tha

> It's really difficult to be isolated in a high stress environment. Mars seems more like a high boredom environment. It's a dead planet where nothing more than the occasional feeble dust storm happen.

fooqux 2y ago
> Mars seems more like a high boredom environment. Something tells me that the first few thousand people sent to Mars won't be bored. There will be tons of things to do in the pursuit of making a habitable space. Besides that, you have the constant death factor. I know we all live with risk 24/7. But, unless we're doing something outside our comfort zone, our brains largely ignore it. Living on Mars will not be like that for a settler. There are real risks that some piece of equipment will fail and kill you all. You'll likely be well aware of that because you'll be working on it. (Or worse, that idiot over there holding the spanner the wrong way is working on it.)
- russfink 2y ago
  Should we pursue such a simulation in an undersea environment instead? Real stress, real risk, real isolation - but could pull someone up if super urgent. Would also simulate the long voyage to get there.
  - OnlyMortal 2y ago
    That might be a good idea if space suits are available. It would be risky, tbf.
  - whyever 2y ago
    Analog astronauts are already doing this.
  - fooqux 2y ago
    >but could pull someone up if super urgent This is the key, IMHO. We've simulated such things as human isolation and closed-loop ecologies before, numerous times. And we did learn some things. But I don't think there is much you can do, and surely not anything ethical, that would correctly simulate being months away from Earth. Just as you said, when you're on-planet, anything that goes wrong can be dealt with. Have a leak you can't fix? Someone just had a medial issue and is unresponsive? You just can't take it any more? Whatever the case, help is just a press of the red button away. I'm not sure if you've played many video games on Hardcore mode, but it's a totally different experience to know your saved game file(s) are in jeopardy if what you're about to do goes south. I would imagine the feeling is somewhat like this, but worse. A lunar base might simulate it. An undersea base (as you suggested) might work too if you put it deep enough. But again, you're entering unethical territory here by making something exceedingly dangerous just for the sake of increasing the risk/stress.
ETH_start 2y ago
Mars' environment is extremely hostile to life, with no breathable air, temperatures more extreme than what's found in Antarctica, and no water or food resources that can be foraged. As if all this were not enough, radiation levels on its surface are also 20 times higher than what's found on Earth. Adding to the difficulties imposed by the harshness of the environment and the paucity of its resources, a habitat there will be more remote than any human habitat that has existed in centuries, perhaps in history, in terms of difficulty of resupplying it. Simply surviving without the vast support network of civilization at hand is a constant struggle on Earth, and all of this will be exponentially more challenging on Mars.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Yeah I think humans living on Mars is a complete fantasy, at least in this century. Will humans visit Mars? We'll probably attempt it. But living there permanently? Not going to happen.
  - ETH_start 2y ago
    It would certainly be difficult, but if we do manage to create viable permanent settlements on Mars that would massively expand the space where humans can live, since it would require significant upgrades in a whole suite of technologies necessary for human colonization of extraterrestrial environmens. Even a technology as seemingly unrelated to Mars settlement as autonomous robots I believe would see significant advances as part of any effort to create a permanent human presence on Mars.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Best case, the technology will allow us to continue to live on a warmer earth, which will still be vastly easier than living on Mars.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  You make a good case for why being on Mars is dangerous. My point is not that it's safe, but that there isn't much to do there, and very little unforeseen happens. I assume no one goes to Mars without the resources to live safely and feed themselves. If we're talking about some adventurers hijacking a Starship, I fully agree that they're in for a world of stress :)
quotemstr 2y ago
Just like Phoenix suburbs --- yet they allegedly support life.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Trying to survive and dealing with the inevitable crisis situations that will come up (critical life support machinery breaks down etc) and the efforts to actually establish a colony will make life far from boring. After 100 years yeah maybe.

fooqux 2y ago

> Mars seems more like a high boredom environment. Something tells me that the first few thousand people sent to Mars won't be bored. There will be tons of things to do in the pursuit of making a habitable space. Besides that, you have the constant death factor. I know we all live with risk 24/7. But, unless we're doing something outside our comfort zone, our brains largely ignore it. Living on Mars will not be like that for a settler. There are real risks that some piece of equipment will fail and kill you all. You'll likely be well aware of that because you'll be working on it. (Or worse, that idiot over there holding the spanner the wrong way is working on it.)

russfink 2y ago
Should we pursue such a simulation in an undersea environment instead? Real stress, real risk, real isolation - but could pull someone up if super urgent. Would also simulate the long voyage to get there.
- OnlyMortal 2y ago
  That might be a good idea if space suits are available. It would be risky, tbf.
- whyever 2y ago
  Analog astronauts are already doing this.
- fooqux 2y ago
  >but could pull someone up if super urgent This is the key, IMHO. We've simulated such things as human isolation and closed-loop ecologies before, numerous times. And we did learn some things. But I don't think there is much you can do, and surely not anything ethical, that would correctly simulate being months away from Earth. Just as you said, when you're on-planet, anything that goes wrong can be dealt with. Have a leak you can't fix? Someone just had a medial issue and is unresponsive? You just can't take it any more? Whatever the case, help is just a press of the red button away. I'm not sure if you've played many video games on Hardcore mode, but it's a totally different experience to know your saved game file(s) are in jeopardy if what you're about to do goes south. I would imagine the feeling is somewhat like this, but worse. A lunar base might simulate it. An undersea base (as you suggested) might work too if you put it deep enough. But again, you're entering unethical territory here by making something exceedingly dangerous just for the sake of increasing the risk/stress.

ETH_start 2y ago

Mars' environment is extremely hostile to life, with no breathable air, temperatures more extreme than what's found in Antarctica, and no water or food resources that can be foraged. As if all this were not enough, radiation levels on its surface are also 20 times higher than what's found on Earth. Adding to the difficulties imposed by the harshness of the environment and the paucity of its resources, a habitat there will be more remote than any human habitat that has existed in centuries, perhaps in history, in terms of difficulty of resupplying it. Simply surviving without the vast support network of civilization at hand is a constant struggle on Earth, and all of this will be exponentially more challenging on Mars.

SoftTalker 2y ago
Yeah I think humans living on Mars is a complete fantasy, at least in this century. Will humans visit Mars? We'll probably attempt it. But living there permanently? Not going to happen.
- ETH_start 2y ago
  It would certainly be difficult, but if we do manage to create viable permanent settlements on Mars that would massively expand the space where humans can live, since it would require significant upgrades in a whole suite of technologies necessary for human colonization of extraterrestrial environmens. Even a technology as seemingly unrelated to Mars settlement as autonomous robots I believe would see significant advances as part of any effort to create a permanent human presence on Mars.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Best case, the technology will allow us to continue to live on a warmer earth, which will still be vastly easier than living on Mars.
BurningFrog 2y ago
You make a good case for why being on Mars is dangerous. My point is not that it's safe, but that there isn't much to do there, and very little unforeseen happens. I assume no one goes to Mars without the resources to live safely and feed themselves. If we're talking about some adventurers hijacking a Starship, I fully agree that they're in for a world of stress :)

quotemstr 2y ago

Just like Phoenix suburbs --- yet they allegedly support life.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Trying to survive and dealing with the inevitable crisis situations that will come up (critical life support machinery breaks down etc) and the efforts to actually establish a colony will make life far from boring. After 100 years yeah maybe.