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https://archive.ph/NleMx https://archive.ph/NleMx How does this make any sense in light of Lisbon being now "one of the world’s most unlivable cities"? Seems

https://archive.ph/NleMx https://archive.ph/NleMx How does this make any sense in light of Lisbon being now "one of the world’s most unlivable cities"? Seems like it can't possibly be good for the native Portugese. https://blogs.mediapart.fr/jacobin/blog/040922/real-estate-speculation-has-made-lisbon-one-world-s-most-unlivable-cities https://blogs.mediapart.fr/jacobin/blog/040922/real-estate-s...

ed_balls 2y ago
Digital nomads don't have to live in Lisbon. Besides, housing supply issues will be solved in 10 years - baby boomers dying.
- weregiraffe 2y ago
  >, housing supply issues will be solved in 10 years - baby boomers dying. Dying baby boomers will spend their wealth in retirement (on pleasure and healthcare), and it will end up in the hands of large financial institutions, not the next generation. Do you think this will solve housing supply issues?
  - ed_balls 2y ago
    yes, you cannot sell a house and move it to a tax heaven.
JamesLefrere 2y ago
Of course it doesn’t benefit the Portuguese. That’s not how Portugal is governed. It’s cynical, but that’s really how it is; learned helplessness on a national scale.
- dantyti 2y ago
  nomads pay taxes, then they leave – Portugal gets extra money to provide social services and does not need to care for those nomads when they hit retirement – saving the state money in the future
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Gimpei 2y ago
Economic stagnation and population decline is bad too. Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base, which pays for social services. Rising housing costs are indeed a problem. Is there a part of town that can accommodate sky-scrapers?
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  > Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base I don't think that this is especially true of the digital nomad laptop tribe. It is, perhaps, true of traditional skilled immigration that's tied to opening a business or working in a target profession. Portugal, however, is going to get a lot of the former and probably rather little of the latter.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base, which pays for social services. Except they're getting tax breaks, it's in the title of the article. The only winners from this will be landlords and property owners. This bullshit trickle down from well-off tourists with laptops we keep getting parroted is a scam, that doesn't benefit the average joe there who now has to deal with even more expensive housing. Why do you think all countries whose economies profit the most from tourists and "digital nomads" (most of Southern Europe), also have the highest wealth inequality, crappiest wages and most unaffordable housing for the locals causing all their youth to emigrate? Where are all those benefits for them you keep talking about? Their economies should be booming by now, and yet they aren't. If you wanna improve your economy you want to attract companies and investors who fund companies and create well paying jobs in the country for the locals, not techbros who can outspend the locals, as that's just economic colonialism that only benefits the asset owning class. Turning your country into a coworking space for remote workers to party, won't fix your economy or benefit the average locals.
  - Radim 2y ago
    Whether foreigners are income-taxed at 20% or 48% cannot be the answer¹. Clearly Portugal's problems are much deeper than that, going back to 1974 and beyond. To name one, Portugal's bureaucracy is legendary. The Portuguese are not called "Honorary East Europeans" for nothing. The red tape creates a complex system of inefficiency and corruption. It's like a cauldron – you (the government) plug one obvious hole, only to find the pressure found another, "unexpectedly". And yes, young people run away in droves from Portugal, leaving entire industries back home chronically understaffed. Construction & health being two prominent examples that need foreigners to keep the lights on. This shortage of labour drives commercial prices up higher still, contributing to the death spiral. ¹ Leaving aside that both numbers are high to begin with; 48% ridiculously so (for anyone above €82k/year). That's no way to treat your productive population. And that's just income; there's additional health and social taxes, some masquarading as "insurance" or "employer contribution". Would you blame the young for leaving?
tardy_one 2y ago
It doesn't look like it is for digital nomads to me.. More like competing for Polish doctors to have doctors in these cities.
- JamesLefrere 2y ago
  Salary requirements negate that, plus the Portuguese health system pays rock-bottom salaries itself, and is already on its knees.
  - tardy_one 2y ago
    Perhaps I left out "trying to".. But really it means they have to raise their salaries for all doctors less to bring their compensation for hiring in new foreign doctors up to an acceptable level for some nation's expat doctors.
ttoinou 2y ago
There are far more tourists than DN and expats.
abofh 2y ago
It doesn't directly, on net though, the average tech nomad is coming in with a salary that's 4-5x the average domestic worker, so that 20% goes a lot farther. Add to that nomads are far more likely to need to buy crap (26% vat), and best of all, leave once full freight taxes hit avoiding any long term dependence on the state. Sucks for housing prices, but it's not a giveaway that it often gets suggested as.
- JetSpiegel 2y ago
  Yes, if the tax rate was 0, all Americans would move to Portugal. It's only economically efficent.
fhe 2y ago
a few months ago, Japan, in trying to attract more digital nomads, introduced a digtal nomad visa[1]. [1] Japan Introduces New Visa for Digital Nomads https://www.japan.travel/en/ca/news/digital-nomad-visa/ https://www.japan.travel/en/ca/news/digital-nomad-visa/
- wetpaws 2y ago
  [dead]
- ghaff 2y ago
  I don’t really get the rationale. You’re effectively pursuing longer term tourists who are cheaper in spending habits on average and presumably want non-hotel housing. Maybe that’s a win in Tokyo but it’s not obvious to me why.
  - dantyti 2y ago
    I guess it’s about having some short-term tax revenue from younger foreigners to help the state deal with an aging population. Since nomads eventually move away, the state does not include them in any pension system.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I guess although I believe a tourist visa for the US and some other countries is 90 days so I assume the incentive is to fly under the radar for that period (eg no coworking space) and then go somewhere else.
ignoreusernames 2y ago
This is a fair argument that's often brought up but I never see actual raw data backing it up. Housing is fucked in several places around the world, including a bunch of countries in Europe that don't have any tax breaks for specialized labor. I would love to look at some metrics like - How many units of housing are built each year - How many units are rented and to what demography (Portuguese families, immigrants sharing rooms, students, etc) - How many migrants (legal and ilegal) - How many specialized migrants each year and the % of them that eventually buy a home - How many units are bought up by funds and other financial entities - How much taxes and social security contributions are collected per year for specialized migrants and how that money is reinvested - etc I known that's basically impossible to have an accurate picture since those numbers are way too "politically loaded". Politics and facts don't mix very well so we just default to who yells the loudest (specially true in Portugal, unfortunately) EDIT: Format bullet points

ed_balls 2y ago

Digital nomads don't have to live in Lisbon. Besides, housing supply issues will be solved in 10 years - baby boomers dying.

weregiraffe 2y ago
>, housing supply issues will be solved in 10 years - baby boomers dying. Dying baby boomers will spend their wealth in retirement (on pleasure and healthcare), and it will end up in the hands of large financial institutions, not the next generation. Do you think this will solve housing supply issues?
- ed_balls 2y ago
  yes, you cannot sell a house and move it to a tax heaven.

JamesLefrere 2y ago

Of course it doesn’t benefit the Portuguese. That’s not how Portugal is governed. It’s cynical, but that’s really how it is; learned helplessness on a national scale.

dantyti 2y ago
nomads pay taxes, then they leave – Portugal gets extra money to provide social services and does not need to care for those nomads when they hit retirement – saving the state money in the future
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

Gimpei 2y ago

Economic stagnation and population decline is bad too. Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base, which pays for social services. Rising housing costs are indeed a problem. Is there a part of town that can accommodate sky-scrapers?

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
> Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base I don't think that this is especially true of the digital nomad laptop tribe. It is, perhaps, true of traditional skilled immigration that's tied to opening a business or working in a target profession. Portugal, however, is going to get a lot of the former and probably rather little of the latter.
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Highly skilled immigrants are especially good for the economy and for the tax base, which pays for social services. Except they're getting tax breaks, it's in the title of the article. The only winners from this will be landlords and property owners. This bullshit trickle down from well-off tourists with laptops we keep getting parroted is a scam, that doesn't benefit the average joe there who now has to deal with even more expensive housing. Why do you think all countries whose economies profit the most from tourists and "digital nomads" (most of Southern Europe), also have the highest wealth inequality, crappiest wages and most unaffordable housing for the locals causing all their youth to emigrate? Where are all those benefits for them you keep talking about? Their economies should be booming by now, and yet they aren't. If you wanna improve your economy you want to attract companies and investors who fund companies and create well paying jobs in the country for the locals, not techbros who can outspend the locals, as that's just economic colonialism that only benefits the asset owning class. Turning your country into a coworking space for remote workers to party, won't fix your economy or benefit the average locals.
- Radim 2y ago
  Whether foreigners are income-taxed at 20% or 48% cannot be the answer¹. Clearly Portugal's problems are much deeper than that, going back to 1974 and beyond. To name one, Portugal's bureaucracy is legendary. The Portuguese are not called "Honorary East Europeans" for nothing. The red tape creates a complex system of inefficiency and corruption. It's like a cauldron – you (the government) plug one obvious hole, only to find the pressure found another, "unexpectedly". And yes, young people run away in droves from Portugal, leaving entire industries back home chronically understaffed. Construction & health being two prominent examples that need foreigners to keep the lights on. This shortage of labour drives commercial prices up higher still, contributing to the death spiral. ¹ Leaving aside that both numbers are high to begin with; 48% ridiculously so (for anyone above €82k/year). That's no way to treat your productive population. And that's just income; there's additional health and social taxes, some masquarading as "insurance" or "employer contribution". Would you blame the young for leaving?

tardy_one 2y ago

It doesn't look like it is for digital nomads to me.. More like competing for Polish doctors to have doctors in these cities.

JamesLefrere 2y ago
Salary requirements negate that, plus the Portuguese health system pays rock-bottom salaries itself, and is already on its knees.
- tardy_one 2y ago
  Perhaps I left out "trying to".. But really it means they have to raise their salaries for all doctors less to bring their compensation for hiring in new foreign doctors up to an acceptable level for some nation's expat doctors.

ttoinou 2y ago

There are far more tourists than DN and expats.

abofh 2y ago

It doesn't directly, on net though, the average tech nomad is coming in with a salary that's 4-5x the average domestic worker, so that 20% goes a lot farther. Add to that nomads are far more likely to need to buy crap (26% vat), and best of all, leave once full freight taxes hit avoiding any long term dependence on the state. Sucks for housing prices, but it's not a giveaway that it often gets suggested as.

JetSpiegel 2y ago
Yes, if the tax rate was 0, all Americans would move to Portugal. It's only economically efficent.

fhe 2y ago

a few months ago, Japan, in trying to attract more digital nomads, introduced a digtal nomad visa[1]. [1] Japan Introduces New Visa for Digital Nomads https://www.japan.travel/en/ca/news/digital-nomad-visa/ https://www.japan.travel/en/ca/news/digital-nomad-visa/

wetpaws 2y ago
[dead]
ghaff 2y ago
I don’t really get the rationale. You’re effectively pursuing longer term tourists who are cheaper in spending habits on average and presumably want non-hotel housing. Maybe that’s a win in Tokyo but it’s not obvious to me why.
- dantyti 2y ago
  I guess it’s about having some short-term tax revenue from younger foreigners to help the state deal with an aging population. Since nomads eventually move away, the state does not include them in any pension system.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I guess although I believe a tourist visa for the US and some other countries is 90 days so I assume the incentive is to fly under the radar for that period (eg no coworking space) and then go somewhere else.

ignoreusernames 2y ago

This is a fair argument that's often brought up but I never see actual raw data backing it up. Housing is fucked in several places around the world, including a bunch of countries in Europe that don't have any tax breaks for specialized labor. I would love to look at some metrics like - How many units of housing are built each year - How many units are rented and to what demography (Portuguese families, immigrants sharing rooms, students, etc) - How many migrants (legal and ilegal) - How many specialized migrants each year and the % of them that eventually buy a home - How many units are bought up by funds and other financial entities - How much taxes and social security contributions are collected per year for specialized migrants and how that money is reinvested - etc I known that's basically impossible to have an accurate picture since those numbers are way too "politically loaded". Politics and facts don't mix very well so we just default to who yells the loudest (specially true in Portugal, unfortunately) EDIT: Format bullet points