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Starfighter Scandal: Did Germany's Lockheed F-104
- palad1n 2y agoThe famous "widowmaker"... I remember these from childhood, looking through a book about fighter jets. Always thought they had a wicked shape, instantly caught my youthful eye.
- dark-star 2y agoI think there might be something missing in the title of this post. Like a verb maybe? "Did Germany's Lockheed F-104"... Did it what? exist?
- JohnKemeny 2y ago... deserve its bad name?
- Aardwolf 2y agoThe little plane that did.
- danmur 2y agoIt accidentally a whole scandal
- exar0815 2y agoHow do you get a Starfighter? Just buy some Land and wait a bit.
- nolist_policy 2y agoAs if it's not bad enough, the Starfighter's radar system also caused cancer and other damages to maintenance personnel due to X-ray radiation.[1] [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundheitssch%C3%A4den_durch_milit%C3%A4rische_Radaranlagen#Strahlenexposition_bei_der_Bundeswehr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundheitssch%C3%A4den_durch_...
- constantcrying 2y agoThey were quite early supersonic fighter jets, designed for very high speeds and high altitudes and made long before many of the most important lessons had been learned. That they were deadly, even to highly trained pilots, seems a logical consequence. What I would be interested in is a comparison to it's Rival, the MiG-21, which outlasted the F-104. Did the Russians struggle just as much? Also, these things are absolutely awesome to see in real life. If you ever get the chance, you should take it.
- flohofwoe 2y ago> Did the Russians struggle just as much? It will be hard to get reliable numbers from behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, this seems to be an attempt to list the known incidents of just one (out of 6) "Jagdfliegergeschwader" in the East German airforce: https://home.snafu.de/veith/verluste1.htm https://home.snafu.de/veith/verluste1.htm, after 1966 most crashes are Mig-21. Here's the list of airplane types and numbers in the East German airforce (all in all East Germany operated 567 Mig-21, more than any other type): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Luftfahrzeugen_der_Nationalen_Volksarmee https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Luftfahrzeugen_der_N... The Indian air force apparently lost over half of their Mig-21 built between 1966 and 1984 to crashes, but maybe because of poor maintenance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21).
- alxlaz 2y agoMake of it what you will, but Mig-21s used to be nicknamed "flying coffins" in some places behind the Iron Curtain. They were notoriously unsafe.
- flohofwoe 2y agoYes, but was the Mig-21 better, worse or roughly the same as the F-104? That's surprisingly hard to figure out because crashes in socialist countries were usually swept under the rug.
- wumms 2y ago> "[...] When I fly a roll and hold a glass of water in my hand, not a drop falls out.” I assumed this was hyperbole, but it seems possible [0], [1] - although they both seem to fly a barrel roll [2]. Would this be possible with just a roll in a fighter jet? [0] "Airplane Drink Trick-Pouring a Beverage While Rolling the Plane" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjHD1U-QWv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjHD1U-QWv4 [1] "Pilot successfully performs barrel roll without spilling water" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LP-YXfmgGM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LP-YXfmgGM [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll
- Y_Y 2y agoEven Newton knew that party trick. The centrifugal force has to at least equal gravity when the glass is upside down, so F/m=w^2r=g. If r (the distance from the axis of revolution is about a metre, then w (the angular velocity) is roughly sqrt(10)/second. In more familiar terms that's about 30 rpm. Anything rotating that fast will be able to keep all its water in the glass.
- wumms 2y agoThanks! It seems to be possible: some roll rates I found (not very good sources, though): F/A-18E Super Hornet 120 deg/s [0], F-16 240 deg/s [0], Eurofighter 250 deg/s [0]. For the Starfighter I found up to 720 deg/s in some discussions, though I go with 360 deg/s [1]. Min. distance (r) from the glass of water to the roll axis to achieve 1g: 120 deg/s (20rpm): 245cm (you'd have to put that glass on the landing gear) 180 deg/s (30rpm): 100cm 240 deg/s (40rpm): 55cm 250 deg/s (42rpm): 51cm 360 deg/s (60rpm): 25cm 720 deg/s (120rpm): 6cm [0] https://theaviationist.com/2015/05/01/aileron-roll-in-t-346a/ https://theaviationist.com/2015/05/01/aileron-roll-in-t-346a... [1] https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/106866-roll-rate-data-of-jets https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/106866-r...
- satiated_grue 2y agoThe classic example of this was Bob Hoover, who poured iced tea in his Rockwell Shrike Commander twin-engine propeller airplane while completing a barrel roll with both engines shut down (gliding). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT1kVmqmvHU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT1kVmqmvHU
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoThey old Hanse-Aristocrats did Stop Franz Josef Strauss from acquiring nukes and now all of europe is secretly scrambling to buy the materials and techniques from every country willing to sell. Somewhere in some swedish/finish/isaeli nuclear powerplant, some eastern european/ russian-chinese border countries delegations are sharing a waiting room, whistling tunelessly embarrassed by this generation of politicans ability to perceive and shape the world. The peaceniks just don't get that in this game they do not make the rules. The one defector that starts the war does. War by definition is societys end- and thus society has no say there, try as it might. It can allow its own version of the "devil" to put up bullwarks. Or it doesn't
- lupusreal 2y agoFrance and the UK have nukes, is that not sufficient? It seems to be getting the job done.
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoWill it help Poland, Latvia, Finland, Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia, if Europe and its values, are that easy deterred? Those security guarantees are almost worthless now, that two defectors have started a new great game.
- throw092309 2y ago> that two defectors have started a new great game There was never the "Great Game". Look into Russian archives, they never played something like that. There was no great plan to capture India. It was all self inflicted paranoia and projection of UK colonial elites!
- elefanten 2y agoThe competitive, zero-sum conquests of two empires were very real, as were the sphere of influence negotiations. But that’s not the point either way. As I’m reading gp, the point is that if the leaders of the international order want to prevent nuclear proliferation (a worthy goal), they’ll have to do better to protect Russia and China’s neighbors from their territorial aggression. Else, the border states won’t have a better choice than deterrence if they want to survive. How many Ukraines and Taiwans will it take before a dozen new hands hold their own red buttons?
- davidwritesbugs 2y agoThere were even albums about the plane: "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters," by Robert Calvin the frontman for Hawkwind.
- Goto80 2y agoAnd one of my favorite songs, "Starfighter F-104G" by Welle:Erdball https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4e1-MUuiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4e1-MUuiE
- avhception 2y agoExcellent song, came here to post it.
- Mikhail_K 2y agoTLDR: it did
- dwighttk 2y agoThe German navy bought starfighters? Did Germany already have an aircraft carrier in the late 50s? And the star fighter could land on a carrier?
- flohofwoe 2y agoGermany never had an aircraft carrier, but the Navy still had land-based fighter squadrons: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinefliegergeschwader_1 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinefliegergeschwader_1 ...not anymore though: https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/marine/ausruestung-und-technik https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/marine/ausruestung...
- sociorealist 2y ago[dead]