4 ms·

I guess whatboutism is okay when it's used against the other side

greesil 2y ago
Oh the hand wringing. Fair's fair when the other side is doing it. Anyway, public discourse will always have someone pushing an agenda. Nabisco, CIA, your local Instagram influencer. It's a race to the bottom. That's why bastions of unbiased investigative journalism is just such a precious thing.
- walterbell 2y ago
  > bastions of unbiased investigative journalism is just such a precious thing Making them targets for influence. A circle of propaganda life. The soil must be tilled.
  - greesil 2y ago
    Oh definitely. This is the same reason why probably every company that's critical to the functioning of the internet probably has moles from every major intelligence agency private and state-run
  - bozhark 2y ago
    No till farming works. Maybe the CIA will shift into doing things “for the better” so that inherent value is raised across the world?
    - greesil 2y ago
      Wasn't that the point of Radio Free Europe and others?
      - mistermann 2y ago
        I love how famous American propaganda is simply overlooked when people are whining about "Russian propaganda", the evidence of which is usually a cleverly written story (which is also propaganda). The irony, naivete, and logical inconsistency of this planet and Westerners in particular is mind boggling.
- coliveira 2y ago
  At least the other side didn't pretend to have a free press. The problem here is to pretend you're in the freest country in the world while everything is being controlled by secret agencies that think it is all fair and good.
  - greesil 2y ago
    Objectively my country is the most free, you can whip out a swastika or one of those stupid Russian Z symbols here and nobody's going to put you in jail. You might deservedly suffer reputational harm, but that's it. The system is far from perfect, and it has suffered horribly in the part 20 years from loss of ad revenue, but my local Mercury News is going to give me better local reporting than Pravda would for Muscovites, or Xinhua for anyone.
    - coliveira 2y ago
      Not true, over the years many people have been put in jail for political reasons, they just don't receive media time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoners_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoners_in_the_Uni...
      - TeaBrain 2y ago
        Most of the latter ones did receive media time. None of those in the article were arrested for simply holding up political symbols like a swastika or Z symbol. In the entire article, there were only a few controversial ones, from the WW1, immediately post-WW1 era and the Vietnam era, and they have all been featured in media.
        coliveira 2y ago
        So now is it ok to have political prisoners if they put a note on the newspaper?...
        greesil 2y ago
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  I mean I agree, but that's also Russian rhetoric. Fair's fair when the other side is doing it is basically the basis of Russian foreign policy, or at least the justification for their foreign policy. Again though I agree with you, whatboutism is just enforcing precedent.
hcta 2y ago
The idea of "whataboutism" as something not "okay" is a rhetorical manipulation tactic.
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  I completely agree, I think that precedent matters. But again, that's just not how conversations go when it's the other side that's being discussed. Try bringing up the US in a Russia thread, here or elsewhere and you'll get that magic word on every single reply lol.
  - hcta 2y ago
    Then let us not descend to the level of our inferiors but maintain an intelligent standard of discussion. There is no reason to cry whataboutism which is what you are doing here in a roundabout way.
- greesil 2y ago
  Staying on topic is a rhetorical manipulation tactic.
  - hcta 2y ago
    i have a local llm installed already but thanks
dotancohen 2y ago
Most of what you call "whatboutism" is really expressing "Actually, this is normal and accepted. Just not for me, right?". If someone is pointing out that you are using a double standard, then the problem is not with them.
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  As I said in other comments, I agree with this but the issue is that whatboutism is still being used as a shield when the other side does something. My original comment was a bit sarcastic, I was just pointing out that this would be seen as whatboutism in any thread about say, Russian media control

Oh the hand wringing. Fair's fair when the other side is doing it. Anyway, public discourse will always have someone pushing an agenda. Nabisco, CIA, your local Instagram influencer. It's a race to the bottom. That's why bastions of unbiased investigative journalism is just such a precious thing.

walterbell 2y ago
> bastions of unbiased investigative journalism is just such a precious thing Making them targets for influence. A circle of propaganda life. The soil must be tilled.
- greesil 2y ago
  Oh definitely. This is the same reason why probably every company that's critical to the functioning of the internet probably has moles from every major intelligence agency private and state-run
- bozhark 2y ago
  No till farming works. Maybe the CIA will shift into doing things “for the better” so that inherent value is raised across the world?
  - greesil 2y ago
    Wasn't that the point of Radio Free Europe and others?
    - mistermann 2y ago
      I love how famous American propaganda is simply overlooked when people are whining about "Russian propaganda", the evidence of which is usually a cleverly written story (which is also propaganda). The irony, naivete, and logical inconsistency of this planet and Westerners in particular is mind boggling.
coliveira 2y ago
At least the other side didn't pretend to have a free press. The problem here is to pretend you're in the freest country in the world while everything is being controlled by secret agencies that think it is all fair and good.
- greesil 2y ago
  Objectively my country is the most free, you can whip out a swastika or one of those stupid Russian Z symbols here and nobody's going to put you in jail. You might deservedly suffer reputational harm, but that's it. The system is far from perfect, and it has suffered horribly in the part 20 years from loss of ad revenue, but my local Mercury News is going to give me better local reporting than Pravda would for Muscovites, or Xinhua for anyone.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Not true, over the years many people have been put in jail for political reasons, they just don't receive media time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoners_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoners_in_the_Uni...
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      Most of the latter ones did receive media time. None of those in the article were arrested for simply holding up political symbols like a swastika or Z symbol. In the entire article, there were only a few controversial ones, from the WW1, immediately post-WW1 era and the Vietnam era, and they have all been featured in media.
      - coliveira 2y ago
        So now is it ok to have political prisoners if they put a note on the newspaper?...
        greesil 2y ago
mardifoufs 2y ago
I mean I agree, but that's also Russian rhetoric. Fair's fair when the other side is doing it is basically the basis of Russian foreign policy, or at least the justification for their foreign policy. Again though I agree with you, whatboutism is just enforcing precedent.

hcta 2y ago

The idea of "whataboutism" as something not "okay" is a rhetorical manipulation tactic.

mardifoufs 2y ago
I completely agree, I think that precedent matters. But again, that's just not how conversations go when it's the other side that's being discussed. Try bringing up the US in a Russia thread, here or elsewhere and you'll get that magic word on every single reply lol.
- hcta 2y ago
  Then let us not descend to the level of our inferiors but maintain an intelligent standard of discussion. There is no reason to cry whataboutism which is what you are doing here in a roundabout way.
greesil 2y ago
Staying on topic is a rhetorical manipulation tactic.
- hcta 2y ago
  i have a local llm installed already but thanks

dotancohen 2y ago

Most of what you call "whatboutism" is really expressing "Actually, this is normal and accepted. Just not for me, right?". If someone is pointing out that you are using a double standard, then the problem is not with them.

mardifoufs 2y ago
As I said in other comments, I agree with this but the issue is that whatboutism is still being used as a shield when the other side does something. My original comment was a bit sarcastic, I was just pointing out that this would be seen as whatboutism in any thread about say, Russian media control