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The individualism of the West is largely a myth, excepting perhaps early pioneer days. The West's social organization is just tribal vs national. For instance

The individualism of the West is largely a myth, excepting perhaps early pioneer days. The West's social organization is just tribal vs national. For instance, all of U.S. politics fits neatly into just two political parties. And, ironically, the idea of individualism itself is a prominent membership hook for one of the two binary tribes.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Agree with a few caveats. In suburbia some folks prefer to go buy a tool, extra vehicle(s), or call family far away than knock on the doors of a few neighbors. Of course even that is mostly an illusion since suburbia is subsidized by food from rural communities and income from rich clusters. It's also kind of unhealthy to live such atomized lives, at least for many people. Alone time is important to me, yet I've come around to appreciating friendly community of all kinds.
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
> For instance, all of U.S. politics fits neatly into just two political parties. Except ... it doesn't. There are American Marxists. There are anarcho-capitalist libertarians. There are ethno-Christian nationalists. And more ... If it appears to "fit" into two political parties, that has more to do with what aspects of American politics appears in whatever media you see, which in turn reflects both the formal powers of those two parties, and their informal power (e.g. the Overton window).
- unclebucknasty 2y ago
  >Except ... it doesn't. I take your point, but "all" in my comment wasn't intended to be taken literally. In fact, your list could've actually been much longer, but the point is that all of these parties must find a way to express their preferences through one of the two predominant parties—or not at all. >If it appears to "fit" into two political parties, that has more to do with what aspects of American politics appears in whatever media you see, which in turn reflects both the formal powers of those two parties In practice, it actually does fit into two political parties, by definition and for exactly the reason you mentioned: they are the only two parties with the formal power to compel the media to express their will. How did that come about in a nation that supposedly embraces individualism? I didn't intend to say that there are no individualistic beliefs in the U.S. I'm saying the idea that individualism is a dominant or defining characteristic of the U.S. in any practical sense is largely a myth. The overwhelming majority of Americans are happy to fit themselves into one of two political parties. That includes the party that fancies itself one of "rugged individuals", while its members adopt a laundry list of exactly the same beliefs.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    > The overwhelming majority of Americans are happy to fit themselves into one of two political parties. I don't know about overwhelming. Typical voter turnout for US presidential elections over the last few decades has been right around 50% (it ticked up notably in 2020). Many people who do not vote report disillusionment with both major parties as a significant reason for their choice.
    - unclebucknasty 2y ago
      >report disillusionment I've heard similar. Of course, it's hard to know whether they'd also report disillusionment with ten (or whatever) political parties. And, really, the idea of political parties is itself not wholly compatible with individualism. But, the broader point is that the current state of affairs seems antithetical to the notion that individualism is a major feature of American society. American "individualism" reminds me of all the people who call themselves "free thinkers", but managed to free think their way to exactly the same set of beliefs.
mikewarot 2y ago
> all of U.S. politics fits neatly into just two political parties. There are Anarchists, Communists, Marxists, wtf Antifa is (actually quite Fascistic in their anti-Fascist stance), neoNazis, the Trump faction, normies, leftists, progressivesm (the last 3 definitely kept out of the DNC), actual conservatives, the Religious Fundamentalists(of all religions), then the DNC and RNC duopoly, which is an influence pedaling racket that claims to represent the majority of US citizens, as a fig leaf of legitimacy.
- krapp 2y ago
  The anarchists, communist and marxists don't count. They have absolutely no political relevance or power outside of social media. They're a no-op. Leftists and progressives, when they vote, tend to vote Democrat, and never vote Republican. Except for that one time when they really wanted Bernie but we don't talk about that. Antifa's politics would have put them solidly hard left, but like all black activist movements they were commoditized by white liberals, infiltrated by the CIA and rendered impotent and useless. They would either opt out or vote Democrat, simply because that's what black voters and leftists tend to do. neonazis, trumpists, and religious fundamentalists, when they vote, tend to vote Republican, and never Democrat. Those groups basically form the modern Republican base at the moment. >the DNC and RNC duopoly, which is an influence pedaling racket that claims to represent the majority of US citizens, as a fig leaf of legitimacy. They do represent the majority of US citizens. Most US citizens aren't extreme enough not to have their views representable by the mainstream.
  - unclebucknasty 2y ago
    First I'm hearing of Antifa originally being a "black activist movement". Citation?
    - krapp 2y ago
      My citation is that I'm stupid and got them confused with BLM. That said (and I'll take my lumps for it,) Antifa basically came up as an anti-Trumpist reactionary movement, so still leftist. Probably all wanted Bernie.

paulryanrogers 2y ago

Agree with a few caveats. In suburbia some folks prefer to go buy a tool, extra vehicle(s), or call family far away than knock on the doors of a few neighbors. Of course even that is mostly an illusion since suburbia is subsidized by food from rural communities and income from rich clusters. It's also kind of unhealthy to live such atomized lives, at least for many people. Alone time is important to me, yet I've come around to appreciating friendly community of all kinds.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

> For instance, all of U.S. politics fits neatly into just two political parties. Except ... it doesn't. There are American Marxists. There are anarcho-capitalist libertarians. There are ethno-Christian nationalists. And more ... If it appears to "fit" into two political parties, that has more to do with what aspects of American politics appears in whatever media you see, which in turn reflects both the formal powers of those two parties, and their informal power (e.g. the Overton window).

unclebucknasty 2y ago
>Except ... it doesn't. I take your point, but "all" in my comment wasn't intended to be taken literally. In fact, your list could've actually been much longer, but the point is that all of these parties must find a way to express their preferences through one of the two predominant parties—or not at all. >If it appears to "fit" into two political parties, that has more to do with what aspects of American politics appears in whatever media you see, which in turn reflects both the formal powers of those two parties In practice, it actually does fit into two political parties, by definition and for exactly the reason you mentioned: they are the only two parties with the formal power to compel the media to express their will. How did that come about in a nation that supposedly embraces individualism? I didn't intend to say that there are no individualistic beliefs in the U.S. I'm saying the idea that individualism is a dominant or defining characteristic of the U.S. in any practical sense is largely a myth. The overwhelming majority of Americans are happy to fit themselves into one of two political parties. That includes the party that fancies itself one of "rugged individuals", while its members adopt a laundry list of exactly the same beliefs.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  > The overwhelming majority of Americans are happy to fit themselves into one of two political parties. I don't know about overwhelming. Typical voter turnout for US presidential elections over the last few decades has been right around 50% (it ticked up notably in 2020). Many people who do not vote report disillusionment with both major parties as a significant reason for their choice.
  - unclebucknasty 2y ago
    >report disillusionment I've heard similar. Of course, it's hard to know whether they'd also report disillusionment with ten (or whatever) political parties. And, really, the idea of political parties is itself not wholly compatible with individualism. But, the broader point is that the current state of affairs seems antithetical to the notion that individualism is a major feature of American society. American "individualism" reminds me of all the people who call themselves "free thinkers", but managed to free think their way to exactly the same set of beliefs.

mikewarot 2y ago

> all of U.S. politics fits neatly into just two political parties. There are Anarchists, Communists, Marxists, wtf Antifa is (actually quite Fascistic in their anti-Fascist stance), neoNazis, the Trump faction, normies, leftists, progressivesm (the last 3 definitely kept out of the DNC), actual conservatives, the Religious Fundamentalists(of all religions), then the DNC and RNC duopoly, which is an influence pedaling racket that claims to represent the majority of US citizens, as a fig leaf of legitimacy.

krapp 2y ago
The anarchists, communist and marxists don't count. They have absolutely no political relevance or power outside of social media. They're a no-op. Leftists and progressives, when they vote, tend to vote Democrat, and never vote Republican. Except for that one time when they really wanted Bernie but we don't talk about that. Antifa's politics would have put them solidly hard left, but like all black activist movements they were commoditized by white liberals, infiltrated by the CIA and rendered impotent and useless. They would either opt out or vote Democrat, simply because that's what black voters and leftists tend to do. neonazis, trumpists, and religious fundamentalists, when they vote, tend to vote Republican, and never Democrat. Those groups basically form the modern Republican base at the moment. >the DNC and RNC duopoly, which is an influence pedaling racket that claims to represent the majority of US citizens, as a fig leaf of legitimacy. They do represent the majority of US citizens. Most US citizens aren't extreme enough not to have their views representable by the mainstream.
- unclebucknasty 2y ago
  First I'm hearing of Antifa originally being a "black activist movement". Citation?
  - krapp 2y ago
    My citation is that I'm stupid and got them confused with BLM. That said (and I'll take my lumps for it,) Antifa basically came up as an anti-Trumpist reactionary movement, so still leftist. Probably all wanted Bernie.