4 ms·

Nice. Google scientists come up with ground breaking idea, then Google's PM bungles the chance to bring it to the market and productize it and someone like Open

Nice. Google scientists come up with ground breaking idea, then Google's PM bungles the chance to bring it to the market and productize it and someone like OpenAI or Anthropic will swoop in to reap the rewards. And the cycle repeats. Deep Mind people invent transformers and then they watch people laugh at Bard or what it's called nowadays because product and engineering lost the plot. Kodak is paging you some message from the grave, read it Google.

kirubakaran 2y ago
Sounds like a management issue, not a PM/Engg issue
- morbicer 2y ago
  Yes, PM to me stands for product _management_ so management issue. Same for engineering - it doesn't mean just individual contributors, there's someone managing the engineering as well.
  - kirubakaran 2y ago
    I meant Senior Management. "Product Manager" manages the product, not people.
    - butyo 2y ago
      The context of the comment chain is Google failing to get product out the door before the competition based upon research results. Sounds like backend management is finding things and product management failing to capitalize was their point.
      - kirubakaran 2y ago
        Ah I see what you mean, thanks!
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Not being able to take ideas and turn them into products clients want is solely a product management issue.
  - fhub 2y ago
    Not always. For example if bringing a new product to market has the perception it might eat into existing revenue then all sorts of managment shenanigans will likely happen at most big orgs.
dbuser99 2y ago
What are you on about? They publish their research advancing the field. And gemini has caught up with openai and anybody else.
- morbicer 2y ago
  I am glad they are advancing the field but I think it's unfortunate that doesn't make them top dog. Gemini is not top tier to me but I admit that confusing naming and spotty worldwide rollout might be a reason why I am not familiar with their best model. But that's a signal on it's own. The launch was faked and I don't think the real thing is here yet https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/googles-best-gemini-demo-was-faked/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/googles-best-gemini-demo-w...
- AndyNemmity 2y ago
  Based on this comment, decided to try out gemini. Total disaster. Doing similar tasks to openai and claude, it just borks. And it is complaining about my desire to use a gender guesser python libary, and tells me that's inappropriate for non-binary people, and it won't do it. That's fun. Edit 1: Also it refuses to print the entire script. I've tried many work arounds, it seems to only want to output a very small number of total lines. Threw it into ChatGPT and immediately it fixed all the issues with Gemini, and worked on first try. Edit 2: The only thing better about Gemini as far as I can tell, is that the copy code button is on the bottom. ChatGPT's is at the top, and that's dumb. Edit 3: I'm being downvoted heavily now, to be clear, I didn't intentionally seek out the gender issue, it's just what I was working on. I'm currently trying to generate infographics based on wrestlers, and I needed to split the men from the female for championship title rankings. I have no problem with it in general, it just came up, so I communicated it. Multiple times Gemini removed the code using the gender guesser library because it felt I shouldn't use it. When trying to determine wrestlers, and their Title Chances, it makes a lot of sense... But Gemini just refused to allow me to use it, which seems like a ridiculous thing. I want to make the choices here.
  - fswd 2y ago
    I've had the same exact experiences.
dyauspitr 2y ago
Gemini is solid. I’ll give them a year or two before they start building an unscalable moat.
- josephg 2y ago
  Claude 3.5 seems better, to me. And ChatGPT is still excellent. Why on earth do you think Google will win this race?
  - ricopags 2y ago
    Largest context window (because of most compute) wins. They've got more serious engineering heavyweights, putting a lot of collective work on fewer tasks/approaches. Microsoft is taking more of a kitchen sink approach
    - josephg 2y ago
      If that was going to make the difference, why is ChatGPT way more popular today than Gemini? Why isn't Google already ahead of their competitors? Google ahead? I'll believe it when I see it. Google are in the race for sure, but they aren't winning. Claude holds that crown for me at the moment. The artifacts feature is wonderful.
      - dyauspitr 2y ago
        If Claude is so good why is everyone using chatGPT?
        josephg 2y ago
        Because it only gotten good in the last few months. ChatGPT has been the king for years, and it has some inertia at this point.
    - patrickhogan1 2y ago
      This is the same argument Musk used (incorrectly) to indicate why OpenAI wouldn’t win and why it should merge with Tesla.
hiddencost 2y ago
Deepmind did not invent transformers... https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762 https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762 https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805 https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805
- josephg 2y ago
  Look at the author lists in the pdfs. Almost all of them are @google.com. They were Google employees when they wrote and published those papers.
  - alecco 2y ago
    Google Brain and Google Research are not DeepMind (an acquired company based in London). Transformers came out on 2017. Last year DeepMind was told to merge with the rest of Google AI (kinda). But it looks like they are still quite independent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_DeepMind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_DeepMind https://research.google/teams/ https://research.google/teams/

kirubakaran 2y ago

Sounds like a management issue, not a PM/Engg issue

morbicer 2y ago
Yes, PM to me stands for product _management_ so management issue. Same for engineering - it doesn't mean just individual contributors, there's someone managing the engineering as well.
- kirubakaran 2y ago
  I meant Senior Management. "Product Manager" manages the product, not people.
  - butyo 2y ago
    The context of the comment chain is Google failing to get product out the door before the competition based upon research results. Sounds like backend management is finding things and product management failing to capitalize was their point.
    - kirubakaran 2y ago
      Ah I see what you mean, thanks!
dyauspitr 2y ago
Not being able to take ideas and turn them into products clients want is solely a product management issue.
- fhub 2y ago
  Not always. For example if bringing a new product to market has the perception it might eat into existing revenue then all sorts of managment shenanigans will likely happen at most big orgs.

dbuser99 2y ago

What are you on about? They publish their research advancing the field. And gemini has caught up with openai and anybody else.

morbicer 2y ago
I am glad they are advancing the field but I think it's unfortunate that doesn't make them top dog. Gemini is not top tier to me but I admit that confusing naming and spotty worldwide rollout might be a reason why I am not familiar with their best model. But that's a signal on it's own. The launch was faked and I don't think the real thing is here yet https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/googles-best-gemini-demo-was-faked/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/googles-best-gemini-demo-w...
AndyNemmity 2y ago
Based on this comment, decided to try out gemini. Total disaster. Doing similar tasks to openai and claude, it just borks. And it is complaining about my desire to use a gender guesser python libary, and tells me that's inappropriate for non-binary people, and it won't do it. That's fun. Edit 1: Also it refuses to print the entire script. I've tried many work arounds, it seems to only want to output a very small number of total lines. Threw it into ChatGPT and immediately it fixed all the issues with Gemini, and worked on first try. Edit 2: The only thing better about Gemini as far as I can tell, is that the copy code button is on the bottom. ChatGPT's is at the top, and that's dumb. Edit 3: I'm being downvoted heavily now, to be clear, I didn't intentionally seek out the gender issue, it's just what I was working on. I'm currently trying to generate infographics based on wrestlers, and I needed to split the men from the female for championship title rankings. I have no problem with it in general, it just came up, so I communicated it. Multiple times Gemini removed the code using the gender guesser library because it felt I shouldn't use it. When trying to determine wrestlers, and their Title Chances, it makes a lot of sense... But Gemini just refused to allow me to use it, which seems like a ridiculous thing. I want to make the choices here.
- fswd 2y ago
  I've had the same exact experiences.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Gemini is solid. I’ll give them a year or two before they start building an unscalable moat.

josephg 2y ago
Claude 3.5 seems better, to me. And ChatGPT is still excellent. Why on earth do you think Google will win this race?
- ricopags 2y ago
  Largest context window (because of most compute) wins. They've got more serious engineering heavyweights, putting a lot of collective work on fewer tasks/approaches. Microsoft is taking more of a kitchen sink approach
  - josephg 2y ago
    If that was going to make the difference, why is ChatGPT way more popular today than Gemini? Why isn't Google already ahead of their competitors? Google ahead? I'll believe it when I see it. Google are in the race for sure, but they aren't winning. Claude holds that crown for me at the moment. The artifacts feature is wonderful.
    - dyauspitr 2y ago
      If Claude is so good why is everyone using chatGPT?
      - josephg 2y ago
        Because it only gotten good in the last few months. ChatGPT has been the king for years, and it has some inertia at this point.
  - patrickhogan1 2y ago
    This is the same argument Musk used (incorrectly) to indicate why OpenAI wouldn’t win and why it should merge with Tesla.

hiddencost 2y ago

Deepmind did not invent transformers... https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762 https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762 https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805 https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805

josephg 2y ago
Look at the author lists in the pdfs. Almost all of them are @google.com. They were Google employees when they wrote and published those papers.
- alecco 2y ago
  Google Brain and Google Research are not DeepMind (an acquired company based in London). Transformers came out on 2017. Last year DeepMind was told to merge with the rest of Google AI (kinda). But it looks like they are still quite independent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_DeepMind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_DeepMind https://research.google/teams/ https://research.google/teams/