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Na4MnCr(PO4)3 Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ? "Regular" sodium-ion batteries with

Na4MnCr(PO4)3 Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ? "Regular" sodium-ion batteries with prussian blue has, it seems, the great advantage of not using any scarce elements. It would be nice to have a comparison between this solid state chemistry and the regular one.

fbdab103 2y ago
Not sure it is a 1:1 equivalent, but this site[0] claims global chromium production is at 41 million metric tons while lithium is 180,000 metric tons. So, the supply chain already exists. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/598320/mine-production-of-chromium-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/598320/mine-production-o...
- Teknomancer 2y ago
  Chromium mining is crucial for the steel production industry because chromium is a key ingredient in the production of stainless steel. We've been hunting and mining it for a LONG time now. Stainless is important to so many preexisting industries, such as new construction, automotive, aerospace, and household appliances. Consequently, there have been shortages in the availability and mining of chromium and this has directly impacted the production capacity and quality of stainless steel in the recent market. Seems solid-state battery production will be in competition with these industries and I would hedge a bet that Stainless Prices will go high in the coming decades as a reflection of the pinch on chromium.
  - YurgenJurgensen 2y ago
    Are there any alternative steel alloys that aren't used now for cost reasons that we'd see if there was a spike in chromium prices?
    - silisili 2y ago
      AFAIK there's no stainless steel without chromium. There are alternatives, like galvanizing or powdercoating. I think if the price of chromium spiked enough, you'd just see more things move on to different materials. More aluminum, titanium, brass, bronze, etc. There are a lot of things made of stainless that don't necessarily have to be, simply because it's cheap and good enough.
    - mastax 2y ago
      During WWII Germany had limited access to chromium and cobalt so they developed alternative metallurgy for their engines etc. I know they nickel plated their cylinder bores. I’m sure there’s more detail available somewhere.
  - kubectl_h 2y ago
    Can you recover chromium from stainless steel?
    - WJW 2y ago
      Yes, through electrochemical means. It's not super energy efficient though, it'd be much better to not put it into steel in the first place if you want to make batteries out of it.
    - creshal 2y ago
      We're already recycling pretty much all the steel we can, so yes, but it's already factored into the global steel supply chain.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  I went on a ride through the internet and saw some figures that lithium production would need to increase by 40X by 2040. But that's still only 7.2 million tons/year. I feel like the where are we going to get the lithium and but what about the environmental costs arguments to be kind of weak when you look at actual production numbers and compare the costs with other resources we consume.
throwup238 2y ago
The difference in their geochemistry is substantial so even if chromium isn't technically that much more abundant, it's significantly easier to mine. The Gibbs free energy of formation for chromium oxides and chromite is much more negative than for lithium-bearing minerals so Cr compounds are thermodynamically favored to precipitate out of melts and solutions, forming minerals with high concentrations that then get pushed up by other processes. Li+, with its lone valence electron, just doesn't form strong bonds or highly stable mineral phases in comparison. On top of that the diffusion coefficients for Cr species in magmas and rocks are generally orders of magnitude lower than for Li. Cr gets locked into crystal structures early and stays put, while Li keeps migrating and diffusing in the form of water soluble minerals. There's also a whole biogeochemical cycle for Cr involving microbes that can concentrate it in sediments.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Chromium is also being looked at for resistive thermal storage, due to the stability properties you mentioned. Doped chromia (Cr2O3) bricks act as both thermal storage elements and resistive heating elements up to 1800 C. https://electrifiedthermal.com/ https://electrifiedthermal.com/ https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/130800 https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/130800
- brightball 2y ago
  This is why I've been interested in the Graphene Aluminum batteries from GMG for so long. They are producing graphene in bulk without having to mine it. Aluminum is already extremely abundant as well. I'm very optimistic because these solve so many battery issues at the same time, heat, rapid charge, sourcing.
  - bjconlan 2y ago
    Oh wow this is great technology. (Also surprised that it's driven by the UQ/rio-tinto. Hopefully GMG will learn from the failures of Tritium on the business side of things (as they are from similar stock))
    - 2y ago
candiddevmike 2y ago
> prussian blue I recognized this as a paint color but didn't know this part. Fascinating substance, this was a very interesting Wikipedia rabbit hole: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue
westurner 2y ago
What are the processes for recovering Chromium (Cr) when recycling batteries after a few hundred cycles? Is it Trivalent, Hexavalent, or another form of Chromium? Chromium > Precautions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium#Precautions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium#Precautions
- westurner 2y ago
  Erin Brockovich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich : > [average Cr-6 levels in wells; public health] In October 2022, even though the EPA announced Cr-6 was likely carcinogenic if consumed in drinking water, The American Chemistry Council, an industry lobby group, disputed their finding. [18] Hopefully it's dietary chromium, not Hexavalent chromium (Cr-6). (My comment on this is unexplainedly downvoted to 0?) Again, would battery recycling processes affect the molecular form of Chromium?
waynecochran 2y ago
Lithium has atomic number 3 and, along with Hydrogen and Helium, was present (at a much lower level) in the early universe. The Earth's crust contains about 20-70 parts per million (ppm) of lithium. It may be tedious to extract, but it is not like we will ever run out.

fbdab103 2y ago

Not sure it is a 1:1 equivalent, but this site[0] claims global chromium production is at 41 million metric tons while lithium is 180,000 metric tons. So, the supply chain already exists. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/598320/mine-production-of-chromium-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/598320/mine-production-o...

Teknomancer 2y ago
Chromium mining is crucial for the steel production industry because chromium is a key ingredient in the production of stainless steel. We've been hunting and mining it for a LONG time now. Stainless is important to so many preexisting industries, such as new construction, automotive, aerospace, and household appliances. Consequently, there have been shortages in the availability and mining of chromium and this has directly impacted the production capacity and quality of stainless steel in the recent market. Seems solid-state battery production will be in competition with these industries and I would hedge a bet that Stainless Prices will go high in the coming decades as a reflection of the pinch on chromium.
- YurgenJurgensen 2y ago
  Are there any alternative steel alloys that aren't used now for cost reasons that we'd see if there was a spike in chromium prices?
  - silisili 2y ago
    AFAIK there's no stainless steel without chromium. There are alternatives, like galvanizing or powdercoating. I think if the price of chromium spiked enough, you'd just see more things move on to different materials. More aluminum, titanium, brass, bronze, etc. There are a lot of things made of stainless that don't necessarily have to be, simply because it's cheap and good enough.
  - mastax 2y ago
    During WWII Germany had limited access to chromium and cobalt so they developed alternative metallurgy for their engines etc. I know they nickel plated their cylinder bores. I’m sure there’s more detail available somewhere.
- kubectl_h 2y ago
  Can you recover chromium from stainless steel?
  - WJW 2y ago
    Yes, through electrochemical means. It's not super energy efficient though, it'd be much better to not put it into steel in the first place if you want to make batteries out of it.
  - creshal 2y ago
    We're already recycling pretty much all the steel we can, so yes, but it's already factored into the global steel supply chain.
Gibbon1 2y ago
I went on a ride through the internet and saw some figures that lithium production would need to increase by 40X by 2040. But that's still only 7.2 million tons/year. I feel like the where are we going to get the lithium and but what about the environmental costs arguments to be kind of weak when you look at actual production numbers and compare the costs with other resources we consume.

throwup238 2y ago

The difference in their geochemistry is substantial so even if chromium isn't technically that much more abundant, it's significantly easier to mine. The Gibbs free energy of formation for chromium oxides and chromite is much more negative than for lithium-bearing minerals so Cr compounds are thermodynamically favored to precipitate out of melts and solutions, forming minerals with high concentrations that then get pushed up by other processes. Li+, with its lone valence electron, just doesn't form strong bonds or highly stable mineral phases in comparison. On top of that the diffusion coefficients for Cr species in magmas and rocks are generally orders of magnitude lower than for Li. Cr gets locked into crystal structures early and stays put, while Li keeps migrating and diffusing in the form of water soluble minerals. There's also a whole biogeochemical cycle for Cr involving microbes that can concentrate it in sediments.

pfdietz 2y ago
Chromium is also being looked at for resistive thermal storage, due to the stability properties you mentioned. Doped chromia (Cr2O3) bricks act as both thermal storage elements and resistive heating elements up to 1800 C. https://electrifiedthermal.com/ https://electrifiedthermal.com/ https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/130800 https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/130800
brightball 2y ago
This is why I've been interested in the Graphene Aluminum batteries from GMG for so long. They are producing graphene in bulk without having to mine it. Aluminum is already extremely abundant as well. I'm very optimistic because these solve so many battery issues at the same time, heat, rapid charge, sourcing.
- bjconlan 2y ago
  Oh wow this is great technology. (Also surprised that it's driven by the UQ/rio-tinto. Hopefully GMG will learn from the failures of Tritium on the business side of things (as they are from similar stock))
  - 2y ago

candiddevmike 2y ago

> prussian blue I recognized this as a paint color but didn't know this part. Fascinating substance, this was a very interesting Wikipedia rabbit hole: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

westurner 2y ago

What are the processes for recovering Chromium (Cr) when recycling batteries after a few hundred cycles? Is it Trivalent, Hexavalent, or another form of Chromium? Chromium > Precautions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium#Precautions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium#Precautions

westurner 2y ago
Erin Brockovich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich : > [average Cr-6 levels in wells; public health] In October 2022, even though the EPA announced Cr-6 was likely carcinogenic if consumed in drinking water, The American Chemistry Council, an industry lobby group, disputed their finding. [18] Hopefully it's dietary chromium, not Hexavalent chromium (Cr-6). (My comment on this is unexplainedly downvoted to 0?) Again, would battery recycling processes affect the molecular form of Chromium?

waynecochran 2y ago

Lithium has atomic number 3 and, along with Hydrogen and Helium, was present (at a much lower level) in the early universe. The Earth's crust contains about 20-70 parts per million (ppm) of lithium. It may be tedious to extract, but it is not like we will ever run out.