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I mean, if it's too much, they will just pull out of the EU and sell to Europeans via online only. EU citizens will still be Apple customers, just without any E

I mean, if it's too much, they will just pull out of the EU and sell to Europeans via online only. EU citizens will still be Apple customers, just without any EU protections. To be fair, the EU is being a bit ridiculous sometimes. Apple decided not to compete in the EU because of the restrictions, and the EU seemingly wanted to penalize that decision also.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> if it's too much, they will just pull out of the EU and sell to Europeans via online only This doesn’t exempt them from the law. Apple is never giving up the EU.
- DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
  > This doesn’t exempt them from the law. Sure it does. If they leave the EU market and have no presence, then EU laws can't reach them. > Apple is never giving up the EU. I would normally agree, but if EU fines surpass the profit Apple can make in the EU, they might.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > If they leave the EU market and have no presence, then EU laws can't reach them Selling your product in the EU means having an EU presence. Like, I can’t just ship heroin to Europe from abroad and claim I’m immune.
    - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
      > Selling your product in the EU means having an EU presence. Ehhhhhh. Kind of. Maybe. Certainly not always. I mean, if there is some shitty little porn company in say, California, and they make porn that say, caters to a fetish that is legal in California but illegal in the EU, well, what then? The porn company isn't doing anything wrong, and EU laws are irrelevant. At this point they can try to firewall off the company, punish ISPs, maybe punish citizens who do business with that company, because it isn't breaking any EU laws, and has no EU presence that can be fined, sieved, etc. This is very normal, this is the way international laws work barring treaties or other agreements to have a special arrangement outside of that. So, if Apple pulls out of the EU, maybe they can no longer ship mail to the EU, I'm doubtful of that but let's just say. Well, there are plenty of non EU countries close by, including the UK. Not really a problem for EU citizens to get one at all, so again, the EU can only punish people, not the company. > Like, I can’t just ship heroin to Europe from abroad and claim I’m immune. If it was legal to do so in the sending country, sure you could. That isn't true for any country though, so it's not a great analogy.
      - immibis 2y ago
        The EU could start blocking payments to that porn studio. Avoiding the block would be money laundering, which is also illegal in California. The EU (or it's constituent countries - not sure) also controls imports, and could seize and destroy illegally purchased iPhones at the border. Every one of my international purchases is already stopped and processed by customs to evaluate import taxes. It would be quite easy for them to simply say "you can't import this."
        DEADMINCE 2y ago
        > The EU could start blocking payments to that porn studio. Sure, but this is not punishing the company in any way which was the other posters point. If the EU was blocking payments to Apple after Apple withdrew from the EU, they are not punishing Apple or holding them accountable to EU law (specifically in the context of complying with competition guidelines and DMA type stuff). > Avoiding the block would be money laundering, which is also illegal in California. Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about that. If the EU barred payments to Apple, that block would be on banks and payment processors, not people. If someone goes to the US and buys an iPhone in this new world, they are not committing a crime unless the EU passes a law prohibiting its citizens to buy iPhones. > The EU (or it's constituent countries - not sure) also controls imports, and could seize and destroy illegally purchased iPhones at the border. Every one of my international purchases is already stopped and processed by customs to evaluate import taxes. It would be quite easy for them to simply say "you can't import this." Absolutely, but this has nothing to do with Apple, and it isn't the EU punishing Apple, it's Apple punishing people or organizations. The other posters point was that if Apple withdraws from the EU, EU law wouldn't apply (in the sense they wouldn't need to allow any 3rd party app store, period), and people could still buy iPhones and Apple products outside of it. It's on the EU to try and deal with that.
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
        > So, if Apple pulls out of the EU, maybe they can no longer ship mail to the EU, I'm doubtful of that but let's just say. Why? Apple has Customs pulling (ironically, actually genuine) Apple parts being shipped. Customs is built around this whole model, unless what, you propose that Apple starts selling commercial quantities of iPhones by disposable drop shippers?
  - WeylandYutani 2y ago
    If Apple leaves they are handing the keys to Google and Chinaphones.
    - burnerthrow008 2y ago
      That sounds like more a problem for the Europe than for Apple
      - ffgjgf1 2y ago
        No, it’s still a problem for apple because they won’t leave. Even in the absurdly inconceivable (to an extent that it’s not even worth discussing) case that they did losing a significant proportion of their revenue would be a much bigger problem for them than the EU.
        burnerthrow008 2y ago
        Less than 20% of Apple’s net income comes from what they call “Europe”, which actually includes Africa and the mid-East. If Apple pulled out of the EU, which isn’t even all of the European continent much less the “Europe” reporting region, they would probably take less than a 10% hit. Significant, but not a showstopper. I don’t know where everyone gets this idea that pulling out of the EU would kill Apple.
        ffgjgf1 2y ago
        > out of the EU would kill Apple. It wouldn’t. It would still be an immensely absurd thing to do. I assume Apple is not run by 12-year olds, why would they lose 15-20% (probably closer to 20%, EMEA seems to be ~27% and besides Britain the EU would be the overwhelming majority of what’s left) of their revenue out of spite when realistically they are only risking 1-2% by staying? They are just trying to find the “optimal” way of complying with the regulations while maximizing their income.
    - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
      That would still be worth if if EU fines to Apple > Apple's EU profit.
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    > they might. Let’s not get silly and totally absurd. Also it’s the cost of compliance that has to surpass their profit not the fines which are entirely optional. In any case Apple is still making a lot of money from selling the devices themselves and much more than from the app store.
    - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
      > Let’s not get silly and totally absurd. Sure, like let's not be silly and absurd and refuse to consider the possibility Apple might leave the EU? > Also it’s the cost of compliance that has to surpass their profit Right, but the fines the EU issues are from their global revenue. While I think this is reasonable, for the same reasons it's a problem that the rich can speed and not care about a fine, but it could well be enough for Apple to withdraw.
      - ffgjgf1 2y ago
        Why would Apple willingly choose to lose 20% of their revenue instead of 2%? That’s simply not rational i.e. absurd
        DEADMINCE 2y ago
        It's only absurd because you chose absurd numbers to use. Where are you getting that 2% figure from? The entire issue is that EU fines take from global revenue, not EU revenue. This is very simple. If EU fines are greater than EU revenue, it would be absurd for Apple not to leave.
        ffgjgf1 2y ago
        > getting that 2% figure from It’s a rough not very educated estimate of what proportion of their global revenue Apple might lose by complying with the regulations ( I’d personally bet it’s significantly less than that). Do you have a better figure?
        2y ago
drdaeman 2y ago
They haven't pulled out from China with all their... domestic requirements. I doubt they're gonna pull from the EU.
- SXX 2y ago
  Apple even continue to follow all Russia demands even though they only sell subscriptions there and accept payments on App Store. E.g few days ago they removed VPN apps from App Store due to demands of Russian government.
- burnerthrow008 2y ago
  The difference is that China’s domestic requirements don’t require Apple to become a non-profit. If the EU’s requirements are actually as many HN’ers would like them to be, Apple will have no reason to sell iPhones in the EU.
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    Apple still makes significantly more money from selling the actual iPhones than from the App Store. This such an obvious fact that anyone even mildly interested in the topic (i.e. commenting here and making such strong, yet silly, claims) surely must know..
    - burnerthrow008 2y ago
      If that were true, Apple wouldn’t care to poke the bear. If you were honest, you would read Apple’s SEC filing, which show that (globally) about 43% of Apple’s profits come from Services, while 57% comes from hardware. You could just admit that you don’t understand the difference between revenue and profit. I’m sure you’ll move the goalposts and claim that’s “significantly” more. The EU wants to zero out Services revenue, while simultaneously removing Apple’s brand value (a curated “walled garden”, where app developers can’t take too much advantage of customers). The alt stores in the EU will be a race to the bottom of which one allows developers to abuse customers the most. Why would any app stay on Apple’s store when alt stores allow more invasive privacy violations? And then when the app ecosystem on iOS looks like Android, what possible reason could you have to buy an iPhone? So, yes, the EU very much wants Apple to be a non-profit.
maxhille 2y ago
I guess most Iphones are sold in a bundle with a carrier contract. Those bundles would become impossible. Without this scheme, most Iphone users would notice how overpriced their shiny status symbol actually is.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  I think that’s pretty rare in the EU these days and seems to be restricted in some countries at least. You might get some nominal discount but you’re still being billed separately for the device/contract each month
ffgjgf1 2y ago
So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… In any case (not quite the same but gives a glimpse into their mindset) they have zero issues with kowtowing to authoritarian regimes like those in Russia or China
- burnerthrow008 2y ago
  > So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% They would directly lose ~40% of profit. Additionally, there’s no reason to buy an iPhone if it just works like an Android, so Apple would be competing with Samsung hardware on price instead of on having a superior customer experience. So there go the other ~60% of profits. So, yes, pulling out of the market completely starts to look like a rational business decision.
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    > They would directly lose ~40% of profit How did you come to that conclusion. Doesn’t “services” include the $20 billion get from Google per year which is basically pure profit? Also Apple care, icloud etc etc. how would that be impacted? > Additionally, there’s no reason to buy an iPhone if it just works like an Android Why would it work the same as an Android? Most people don’t use third party appstores or side loading anyway… > So, yes, pulling out of the market completely starts to look like a rational business decision. An utterly ridiculously absurd thing to say..
- DEADMINCE 2y ago
  > So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… Not sure where you're pulling that 5% figure from, but the EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage of their global revenue, not just EU revenue. If the fines the EU wants to impose are greater than Apple's profit in the EU, indeed it would be a smart business decision to pull out. > In any case (not quite the same but gives a glimpse into their mindset) they have zero issues with kowtowing to authoritarian regimes like those in Russia or China Well, duh. Apple are not concerned with a government abusing its own people, they are concerned with a government taking 10% of their global revenue.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> if it's too much, they will just pull out of the EU and sell to Europeans via online only This doesn’t exempt them from the law. Apple is never giving up the EU.

DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
> This doesn’t exempt them from the law. Sure it does. If they leave the EU market and have no presence, then EU laws can't reach them. > Apple is never giving up the EU. I would normally agree, but if EU fines surpass the profit Apple can make in the EU, they might.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > If they leave the EU market and have no presence, then EU laws can't reach them Selling your product in the EU means having an EU presence. Like, I can’t just ship heroin to Europe from abroad and claim I’m immune.
  - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
    > Selling your product in the EU means having an EU presence. Ehhhhhh. Kind of. Maybe. Certainly not always. I mean, if there is some shitty little porn company in say, California, and they make porn that say, caters to a fetish that is legal in California but illegal in the EU, well, what then? The porn company isn't doing anything wrong, and EU laws are irrelevant. At this point they can try to firewall off the company, punish ISPs, maybe punish citizens who do business with that company, because it isn't breaking any EU laws, and has no EU presence that can be fined, sieved, etc. This is very normal, this is the way international laws work barring treaties or other agreements to have a special arrangement outside of that. So, if Apple pulls out of the EU, maybe they can no longer ship mail to the EU, I'm doubtful of that but let's just say. Well, there are plenty of non EU countries close by, including the UK. Not really a problem for EU citizens to get one at all, so again, the EU can only punish people, not the company. > Like, I can’t just ship heroin to Europe from abroad and claim I’m immune. If it was legal to do so in the sending country, sure you could. That isn't true for any country though, so it's not a great analogy.
    - immibis 2y ago
      The EU could start blocking payments to that porn studio. Avoiding the block would be money laundering, which is also illegal in California. The EU (or it's constituent countries - not sure) also controls imports, and could seize and destroy illegally purchased iPhones at the border. Every one of my international purchases is already stopped and processed by customs to evaluate import taxes. It would be quite easy for them to simply say "you can't import this."
      - DEADMINCE 2y ago
        > The EU could start blocking payments to that porn studio. Sure, but this is not punishing the company in any way which was the other posters point. If the EU was blocking payments to Apple after Apple withdrew from the EU, they are not punishing Apple or holding them accountable to EU law (specifically in the context of complying with competition guidelines and DMA type stuff). > Avoiding the block would be money laundering, which is also illegal in California. Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about that. If the EU barred payments to Apple, that block would be on banks and payment processors, not people. If someone goes to the US and buys an iPhone in this new world, they are not committing a crime unless the EU passes a law prohibiting its citizens to buy iPhones. > The EU (or it's constituent countries - not sure) also controls imports, and could seize and destroy illegally purchased iPhones at the border. Every one of my international purchases is already stopped and processed by customs to evaluate import taxes. It would be quite easy for them to simply say "you can't import this." Absolutely, but this has nothing to do with Apple, and it isn't the EU punishing Apple, it's Apple punishing people or organizations. The other posters point was that if Apple withdraws from the EU, EU law wouldn't apply (in the sense they wouldn't need to allow any 3rd party app store, period), and people could still buy iPhones and Apple products outside of it. It's on the EU to try and deal with that.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      > So, if Apple pulls out of the EU, maybe they can no longer ship mail to the EU, I'm doubtful of that but let's just say. Why? Apple has Customs pulling (ironically, actually genuine) Apple parts being shipped. Customs is built around this whole model, unless what, you propose that Apple starts selling commercial quantities of iPhones by disposable drop shippers?
- WeylandYutani 2y ago
  If Apple leaves they are handing the keys to Google and Chinaphones.
  - burnerthrow008 2y ago
    That sounds like more a problem for the Europe than for Apple
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      No, it’s still a problem for apple because they won’t leave. Even in the absurdly inconceivable (to an extent that it’s not even worth discussing) case that they did losing a significant proportion of their revenue would be a much bigger problem for them than the EU.
      - burnerthrow008 2y ago
        Less than 20% of Apple’s net income comes from what they call “Europe”, which actually includes Africa and the mid-East. If Apple pulled out of the EU, which isn’t even all of the European continent much less the “Europe” reporting region, they would probably take less than a 10% hit. Significant, but not a showstopper. I don’t know where everyone gets this idea that pulling out of the EU would kill Apple.
        ffgjgf1 2y ago
        > out of the EU would kill Apple. It wouldn’t. It would still be an immensely absurd thing to do. I assume Apple is not run by 12-year olds, why would they lose 15-20% (probably closer to 20%, EMEA seems to be ~27% and besides Britain the EU would be the overwhelming majority of what’s left) of their revenue out of spite when realistically they are only risking 1-2% by staying? They are just trying to find the “optimal” way of complying with the regulations while maximizing their income.
  - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
    That would still be worth if if EU fines to Apple > Apple's EU profit.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  > they might. Let’s not get silly and totally absurd. Also it’s the cost of compliance that has to surpass their profit not the fines which are entirely optional. In any case Apple is still making a lot of money from selling the devices themselves and much more than from the app store.
  - DEADMINCEDOS 2y ago
    > Let’s not get silly and totally absurd. Sure, like let's not be silly and absurd and refuse to consider the possibility Apple might leave the EU? > Also it’s the cost of compliance that has to surpass their profit Right, but the fines the EU issues are from their global revenue. While I think this is reasonable, for the same reasons it's a problem that the rich can speed and not care about a fine, but it could well be enough for Apple to withdraw.
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      Why would Apple willingly choose to lose 20% of their revenue instead of 2%? That’s simply not rational i.e. absurd
      - DEADMINCE 2y ago
        It's only absurd because you chose absurd numbers to use. Where are you getting that 2% figure from? The entire issue is that EU fines take from global revenue, not EU revenue. This is very simple. If EU fines are greater than EU revenue, it would be absurd for Apple not to leave.
        ffgjgf1 2y ago
        > getting that 2% figure from It’s a rough not very educated estimate of what proportion of their global revenue Apple might lose by complying with the regulations ( I’d personally bet it’s significantly less than that). Do you have a better figure?
        2y ago

drdaeman 2y ago

They haven't pulled out from China with all their... domestic requirements. I doubt they're gonna pull from the EU.

SXX 2y ago
Apple even continue to follow all Russia demands even though they only sell subscriptions there and accept payments on App Store. E.g few days ago they removed VPN apps from App Store due to demands of Russian government.
burnerthrow008 2y ago
The difference is that China’s domestic requirements don’t require Apple to become a non-profit. If the EU’s requirements are actually as many HN’ers would like them to be, Apple will have no reason to sell iPhones in the EU.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  Apple still makes significantly more money from selling the actual iPhones than from the App Store. This such an obvious fact that anyone even mildly interested in the topic (i.e. commenting here and making such strong, yet silly, claims) surely must know..
  - burnerthrow008 2y ago
    If that were true, Apple wouldn’t care to poke the bear. If you were honest, you would read Apple’s SEC filing, which show that (globally) about 43% of Apple’s profits come from Services, while 57% comes from hardware. You could just admit that you don’t understand the difference between revenue and profit. I’m sure you’ll move the goalposts and claim that’s “significantly” more. The EU wants to zero out Services revenue, while simultaneously removing Apple’s brand value (a curated “walled garden”, where app developers can’t take too much advantage of customers). The alt stores in the EU will be a race to the bottom of which one allows developers to abuse customers the most. Why would any app stay on Apple’s store when alt stores allow more invasive privacy violations? And then when the app ecosystem on iOS looks like Android, what possible reason could you have to buy an iPhone? So, yes, the EU very much wants Apple to be a non-profit.

maxhille 2y ago

I guess most Iphones are sold in a bundle with a carrier contract. Those bundles would become impossible. Without this scheme, most Iphone users would notice how overpriced their shiny status symbol actually is.

ffgjgf1 2y ago
I think that’s pretty rare in the EU these days and seems to be restricted in some countries at least. You might get some nominal discount but you’re still being billed separately for the device/contract each month

ffgjgf1 2y ago

So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… In any case (not quite the same but gives a glimpse into their mindset) they have zero issues with kowtowing to authoritarian regimes like those in Russia or China

burnerthrow008 2y ago
> So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% They would directly lose ~40% of profit. Additionally, there’s no reason to buy an iPhone if it just works like an Android, so Apple would be competing with Samsung hardware on price instead of on having a superior customer experience. So there go the other ~60% of profits. So, yes, pulling out of the market completely starts to look like a rational business decision.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  > They would directly lose ~40% of profit How did you come to that conclusion. Doesn’t “services” include the $20 billion get from Google per year which is basically pure profit? Also Apple care, icloud etc etc. how would that be impacted? > Additionally, there’s no reason to buy an iPhone if it just works like an Android Why would it work the same as an Android? Most people don’t use third party appstores or side loading anyway… > So, yes, pulling out of the market completely starts to look like a rational business decision. An utterly ridiculously absurd thing to say..
DEADMINCE 2y ago
> So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… Not sure where you're pulling that 5% figure from, but the EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage of their global revenue, not just EU revenue. If the fines the EU wants to impose are greater than Apple's profit in the EU, indeed it would be a smart business decision to pull out. > In any case (not quite the same but gives a glimpse into their mindset) they have zero issues with kowtowing to authoritarian regimes like those in Russia or China Well, duh. Apple are not concerned with a government abusing its own people, they are concerned with a government taking 10% of their global revenue.