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> The integrated DJI Avinox electric power assist system leverages DJI's cutting-edge technologies in both software and hardware design, offering 850 W of peak

> The integrated DJI Avinox electric power assist system leverages DJI's cutting-edge technologies in both software and hardware design, offering 850 W of peak power (250 W nominal power) in an ultra-light body of 19.2kg This is most unimpressive. I have an 2019 3000w LunaCycle e-mountain bike (based on the Giant Anthem) with similar drive system weight specs, which includes the ginormous 40ah battery. Why can't DJI compete with something nice from 5 years ago?

bagels 2y ago
Is that a legal bike in your jurisdiction? In California you're riding an unregistered moped, illegally, most likely. I suspect DJI is aiming for legal bikes that established bicycle manufacturers can sell.
- _zoltan_ 2y ago
  I can't imagine a 3kW bicycle to be legal anywhere. here in Europe you'd need an A1 license for it.
  - metadat 2y ago
    Fwiw you wouldn't ride around town at 3kw, that would be ridiculous and dangerous. The default power level is "1" (out of 5) which assists with around 180-250w. Fun trail bike though (helpful on the uphills, for someone who doesn't typically enjoy that part).
    - wolpoli 2y ago
      In BC, Canada, there is a maximum motor power limit of 500W for e-bikes. I am not sure if switching (or locking?) the e-bike to power assist level 1 would qualify.
- metadat 2y ago
  The point is, if DJI's system is lower power, shouldn't it be significantly lighter?
  - bagels 2y ago
    Depends on the engineering requirements of each system. Maybe? Price point, materials, durability, manufacturing volume, size and other factors definitely affect the weight.
  - SkyPuncher 2y ago
    Not necessarily. Large portions of the casual bike segment don’t care about weight - other than lifting it on and off their bike rack.
    - metadat 2y ago
      It seems quite shortsighted, weight makes a huge difference. My brother recently bought some 75-80lb steel-framed e-bike with small diamerer wide wheels, and couldn't even make it 30 miles with pedal-assist before it died. The last 10 miles his speed plummeted from 15-17mph to 4-6mph at most, and this is for a very strong (but out of bicycling shape) guy. On unpowered bikes he is much faster than me, and I'm not a slouch. I tried riding the steel thing with no battery and it was not pleasant at all. Compare that to my LunaCycle, even at 50lbs total it's not that bad to ride with no power. Is it mostly clueless people (like my bro) falling for "It has a battery so heavy bike weight will not matter"?
- Aurornis 2y ago
  Definitely not legal. These are popular with a subset of DIY builders because the laws aren't really enforced, so they can get a small electric motorcycle that passes as an e-bike while not adhering to the requirements for a vehicle that powerful. Some will try to claim that if you set the bike to the lowest power then it's legal, but of course they'll quietly switch the power to whatever they want when riding.
TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Legal limit in USA is 750 watts, legal limit in UK is 250 watts. Competition on power output is illegal. I have a BBSHD which can be trivially programmed to 1500w output (likely the same as your Luna cycle without a custom controller) and it’s great. It is widely regarded that there is no enforcement of power limits, but manufacturers can’t really advertise illegal power limits for sale. Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind. In my case 1500 watts feels like a good low range of what I would want. Luckily for work I’ve been developing my own open source brushless motor controller for a few years now, and we’re finally maturing past the self-immolation phase of motor controller design. I’m going to try to outfit my bike with it eventually. Later on I would like to make a 72 volt version (84v peak, so 100 volt parts). https://youtube.com/@highvoltagekits https://youtube.com/@highvoltagekits https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tree/main/driver_module https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr... https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tree/main/RP2040_base https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr...
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind. Those "High power ebike enthusiasts" are actually "small electric motorcycle" enthusiasts. The point of the regulations is to keep the power levels within the range of what's expected for a bike. I'm fine with a separate class of regulations allowing higher power, but only if those vehicles are easily disallowed from bike trails. If the goal is to ride around with cars in traffic all day, it shouldn't be a problem to be banned from bike trails. There's a real problem of overpowered DIY or hacked e-bikes tearing up trails everywhere and getting out of control. 3kw is 4 horsepower. It's more than even the world record for peak human power output and far more than any human can sustain. I think it's cool that people build these high power machines, but let's be honest about what they are: Electric motorcycles, not bikes.
tln 2y ago
Your LunaCycle probably weighs > 70lbs! The Amflow PL bikes lists in the press release as 43lb which isn't "revolutionary" but 850W and 600Wh battery is way more than the other really light MTBs. And those other ones are really expensive. I'm looking forward to seeing price. I wish they had shared some specs regarding noise, it sounds like they have put some effort into optimizing that as well. I like my 1500W LunaCycle, but would eagerly trade for a bike that weighs 2/3 as much and is a bit quieter
- metadat 2y ago
  It's a little under 50lbs in total I think. Something like 48-52lbs if memory serves. By the way, it wasn't easy standing on a scale holding the bike, but when it was I felt this to be very necessary, haha. But the numbers make sense, without the battery and motor, the bike should be around 15 pounds, which leaves ~35 lbs of battery + motor. *p.s. Apparently I was mistaken up in the thread - the battery pack is only 21AH, not 40.

bagels 2y ago

Is that a legal bike in your jurisdiction? In California you're riding an unregistered moped, illegally, most likely. I suspect DJI is aiming for legal bikes that established bicycle manufacturers can sell.

_zoltan_ 2y ago
I can't imagine a 3kW bicycle to be legal anywhere. here in Europe you'd need an A1 license for it.
- metadat 2y ago
  Fwiw you wouldn't ride around town at 3kw, that would be ridiculous and dangerous. The default power level is "1" (out of 5) which assists with around 180-250w. Fun trail bike though (helpful on the uphills, for someone who doesn't typically enjoy that part).
  - wolpoli 2y ago
    In BC, Canada, there is a maximum motor power limit of 500W for e-bikes. I am not sure if switching (or locking?) the e-bike to power assist level 1 would qualify.
metadat 2y ago
The point is, if DJI's system is lower power, shouldn't it be significantly lighter?
- bagels 2y ago
  Depends on the engineering requirements of each system. Maybe? Price point, materials, durability, manufacturing volume, size and other factors definitely affect the weight.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Not necessarily. Large portions of the casual bike segment don’t care about weight - other than lifting it on and off their bike rack.
  - metadat 2y ago
    It seems quite shortsighted, weight makes a huge difference. My brother recently bought some 75-80lb steel-framed e-bike with small diamerer wide wheels, and couldn't even make it 30 miles with pedal-assist before it died. The last 10 miles his speed plummeted from 15-17mph to 4-6mph at most, and this is for a very strong (but out of bicycling shape) guy. On unpowered bikes he is much faster than me, and I'm not a slouch. I tried riding the steel thing with no battery and it was not pleasant at all. Compare that to my LunaCycle, even at 50lbs total it's not that bad to ride with no power. Is it mostly clueless people (like my bro) falling for "It has a battery so heavy bike weight will not matter"?
Aurornis 2y ago
Definitely not legal. These are popular with a subset of DIY builders because the laws aren't really enforced, so they can get a small electric motorcycle that passes as an e-bike while not adhering to the requirements for a vehicle that powerful. Some will try to claim that if you set the bike to the lowest power then it's legal, but of course they'll quietly switch the power to whatever they want when riding.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago

Legal limit in USA is 750 watts, legal limit in UK is 250 watts. Competition on power output is illegal. I have a BBSHD which can be trivially programmed to 1500w output (likely the same as your Luna cycle without a custom controller) and it’s great. It is widely regarded that there is no enforcement of power limits, but manufacturers can’t really advertise illegal power limits for sale. Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind. In my case 1500 watts feels like a good low range of what I would want. Luckily for work I’ve been developing my own open source brushless motor controller for a few years now, and we’re finally maturing past the self-immolation phase of motor controller design. I’m going to try to outfit my bike with it eventually. Later on I would like to make a 72 volt version (84v peak, so 100 volt parts). https://youtube.com/@highvoltagekits https://youtube.com/@highvoltagekits https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tree/main/driver_module https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr... https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tree/main/RP2040_base https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr...

Aurornis 2y ago
> Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind. Those "High power ebike enthusiasts" are actually "small electric motorcycle" enthusiasts. The point of the regulations is to keep the power levels within the range of what's expected for a bike. I'm fine with a separate class of regulations allowing higher power, but only if those vehicles are easily disallowed from bike trails. If the goal is to ride around with cars in traffic all day, it shouldn't be a problem to be banned from bike trails. There's a real problem of overpowered DIY or hacked e-bikes tearing up trails everywhere and getting out of control. 3kw is 4 horsepower. It's more than even the world record for peak human power output and far more than any human can sustain. I think it's cool that people build these high power machines, but let's be honest about what they are: Electric motorcycles, not bikes.

tln 2y ago

Your LunaCycle probably weighs > 70lbs! The Amflow PL bikes lists in the press release as 43lb which isn't "revolutionary" but 850W and 600Wh battery is way more than the other really light MTBs. And those other ones are really expensive. I'm looking forward to seeing price. I wish they had shared some specs regarding noise, it sounds like they have put some effort into optimizing that as well. I like my 1500W LunaCycle, but would eagerly trade for a bike that weighs 2/3 as much and is a bit quieter

metadat 2y ago
It's a little under 50lbs in total I think. Something like 48-52lbs if memory serves. By the way, it wasn't easy standing on a scale holding the bike, but when it was I felt this to be very necessary, haha. But the numbers make sense, without the battery and motor, the bike should be around 15 pounds, which leaves ~35 lbs of battery + motor. *p.s. Apparently I was mistaken up in the thread - the battery pack is only 21AH, not 40.