4 ms·

There's a whole field of study, named Kremlinology, dedicated to deciphering what was it that the people there actually meant by saying this and that. I used t

by Tade0 2y ago

There's a whole field of study, named Kremlinology, dedicated to deciphering what was it that the people there actually meant by saying this and that. I used to think that I had some additional insight, hailing from a country neighbouring Russia, but it takes being born on former soviet territory to fully understand their line of thinking. It's not that it's particularly sophisticated - just utterly foreign to anyone even west-adjacent.

medo-bear 2y ago
[flagged]
- jfengel 2y ago
  Maybe we could have avoided it. Maybe not. It's wishful thinking to say "All we had to do was give them what they wanted." I'll skip the tired historical comparison, but just point out that we can't know the counterfactual. I certainly do not deny American entitlement and exceptionalism, and I think it's a massive mistake on our part. But nobody in the US (or Europe) has any designs on Russian territory. Our mistake as about how we treat our friends, not our enemies. The Ukraine war was put NATO even more on Russia's borders, and Putin has been NATO's greatest salesman. It's hard to foresee an outcome that doesn't end with Ukraine (in whatever territory it can keep) joining NATO. America definitely needs to fix its attitude. But Russia appears intent on completely misunderstanding us, and doing so in ways that get its ass kicked. That's not good for anybody, but Russia least of all.
  - medo-bear 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources, to the extent that sooner or later it will become a super power just on this account alone. I'm not just talking about oil but fresh water and oxygen too. "Mr. President, we must not allow a̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶e̶-̶s̶h̶a̶f̶t̶ an oxygen gap!"
    - TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
      > Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources If space industry will get going in next 50 years, then this is going to be completely irrelevant.
    - JohnBooty 2y ago
      Russia will always have an adversarial relationship with Europe. Russia is huge. Its borders are essentially indefensible and (justly or not) it will always be insecure about its own territorial integrity unless it controls the countries around it as buffer states. Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources, to the extent that sooner or later it will become a super power just on this account alone. So why hasn't this happened yet? Russia is resource-rich but sparse. There are riches in the ground, but everything is 1,000km from everything else. This makes it hard to transport goods and also hard to have a prosperous middle class outside of Moscow or a few other cities. Also, considering what has gone on with Russian natural gas, many countries don't exactly love the idea of relying on Russia for crucial resources. Russia also has poor farmland and can't feed itself easily without grain from places like Ukraine. Maybe after 50 years of global warming some tundra will thaw and then they can grow wheat in Siberia. I'm not exactly "blaming" Russia here. Russia's territorial concerns are, well... hey... you know, the Cold War really happened, and the wounds are still there. Both sides.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - foogazi 2y ago
      Hard to see how they are stronger after this Russia is already dependent on North Korea munitions and drones from Iran ffs For reference, in 2003 the US military deployed half-way around the world and captured Baghdad in 3 weeks Nuclear super-power Russia has not been able to reach Kiev - just 6 hours away - in 28 months of open conflict
- mola 2y ago
  Avoided by them taking Ukrain and all other eatern bloc countries without a war,just with corrupt politicians and some well timed assisanation. Kremlin never hides it's imperialism. Maybe just listen to that?
- lawn 2y ago
  > If instead we listened to what they were actually saying about the expansion of NATO toward their borders this conflict could have been avoided. Yes, we should have seen their invasion before it started and helped Ukraine defend against it better. Because, surely, you're not suggesting that we should have let Russia rape, murder and pillage Ukraine (and other countries) without any resistance?
- racional 2y ago
  If instead we listened to what they were actually saying about the expansion of NATO toward their borders this conflict could have been avoided. Actually the West did listen, and as a result took the crucial step of formally denying the NATO memberships requests of Ukraine and Georgia in 2008. But Russia invaded anyway -- because all this NATO noise was never the real reason they sought to pacify Ukraine in the first place.

by Tade0 2y ago

medo-bear 2y ago

[flagged]

jfengel 2y ago
Maybe we could have avoided it. Maybe not. It's wishful thinking to say "All we had to do was give them what they wanted." I'll skip the tired historical comparison, but just point out that we can't know the counterfactual. I certainly do not deny American entitlement and exceptionalism, and I think it's a massive mistake on our part. But nobody in the US (or Europe) has any designs on Russian territory. Our mistake as about how we treat our friends, not our enemies. The Ukraine war was put NATO even more on Russia's borders, and Putin has been NATO's greatest salesman. It's hard to foresee an outcome that doesn't end with Ukraine (in whatever territory it can keep) joining NATO. America definitely needs to fix its attitude. But Russia appears intent on completely misunderstanding us, and doing so in ways that get its ass kicked. That's not good for anybody, but Russia least of all.
- medo-bear 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources, to the extent that sooner or later it will become a super power just on this account alone. I'm not just talking about oil but fresh water and oxygen too. "Mr. President, we must not allow a̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶e̶-̶s̶h̶a̶f̶t̶ an oxygen gap!"
  - TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
    > Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources If space industry will get going in next 50 years, then this is going to be completely irrelevant.
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    Russia will always have an adversarial relationship with Europe. Russia is huge. Its borders are essentially indefensible and (justly or not) it will always be insecure about its own territorial integrity unless it controls the countries around it as buffer states. Russian territory is stupendously rich in vital natural resources, to the extent that sooner or later it will become a super power just on this account alone. So why hasn't this happened yet? Russia is resource-rich but sparse. There are riches in the ground, but everything is 1,000km from everything else. This makes it hard to transport goods and also hard to have a prosperous middle class outside of Moscow or a few other cities. Also, considering what has gone on with Russian natural gas, many countries don't exactly love the idea of relying on Russia for crucial resources. Russia also has poor farmland and can't feed itself easily without grain from places like Ukraine. Maybe after 50 years of global warming some tundra will thaw and then they can grow wheat in Siberia. I'm not exactly "blaming" Russia here. Russia's territorial concerns are, well... hey... you know, the Cold War really happened, and the wounds are still there. Both sides.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - foogazi 2y ago
    Hard to see how they are stronger after this Russia is already dependent on North Korea munitions and drones from Iran ffs For reference, in 2003 the US military deployed half-way around the world and captured Baghdad in 3 weeks Nuclear super-power Russia has not been able to reach Kiev - just 6 hours away - in 28 months of open conflict
mola 2y ago
Avoided by them taking Ukrain and all other eatern bloc countries without a war,just with corrupt politicians and some well timed assisanation. Kremlin never hides it's imperialism. Maybe just listen to that?
lawn 2y ago
> If instead we listened to what they were actually saying about the expansion of NATO toward their borders this conflict could have been avoided. Yes, we should have seen their invasion before it started and helped Ukraine defend against it better. Because, surely, you're not suggesting that we should have let Russia rape, murder and pillage Ukraine (and other countries) without any resistance?
racional 2y ago
If instead we listened to what they were actually saying about the expansion of NATO toward their borders this conflict could have been avoided. Actually the West did listen, and as a result took the crucial step of formally denying the NATO memberships requests of Ukraine and Georgia in 2008. But Russia invaded anyway -- because all this NATO noise was never the real reason they sought to pacify Ukraine in the first place.