3 ms·

This gives the people who decide what statements are "lies" too much power. Many politicians would like to silence the "lies" of their opponents.

elric 2y ago
Sure. But what's the alternative? Letting politicians lie through their teeth with impunity? You would think that liars and cheaters wouldn't get (re-)elected, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >But what's the alternative? Debate. An opposition with political power. Separation of powers. Federalism. This is an ancient problem, which has been confronted by different societies in many ways. In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will. Politics is about disagreement about facts.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    You can get a debate of multiple people full of lies. Having a debate doesn't change the content. > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked Have you got a specific case in mind? I couldn't find one and multiple articles about Wales refer to it as the first country. So where has it not worked before?
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      >Have you got a specific case in mind? Yes, namely that in all of political history I am not aware of a single case where an idea this awful was even attempted.
      - viraptor 2y ago
        I see. So what you meant was "it was never tried" rather than «In no society has "banning lying" ever worked», which is a very different thing.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > Politics is about disagreement about facts. That only works when both sides have respect for the truth and facts and disagree in good faith. When one side becomes unhinged and unmoored from reality (cf Trump, UK Tories, etc.), things go horribly wrong.
  - Bostonian 2y ago
    It's also a disagreement about values. For example, voters who align with the two political parties know what abortion is but disagree about when it should be legal.
  - Towaway69 2y ago
    Constructive debate - debate that doesn’t criticise the messenger, debate that constructively searches for optimal solution for all and not just the few.
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will. Politics is about disagreement about facts. Many political systems implement ethical guidelines and laws to minimize lying, especially in formal settings like courtrooms and official statements. Why hold politics to a lesser standard? > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will There have been periods and societies where strong cultural or legal norms against lying have fostered more honest political environments. Ancient Athens had ostracism, where citizens could vote to exile those seen as harmful to the state, including habitual liars. There used to be laws about lying through your teeth on news broadcasts.. While not perfect, removing them hasn't exactly been healthy for democracy, has it?
- Yizahi 2y ago
  Legislate an easy, fast and unencumbered process to vote ANY politician out of the system by simple popular majority vote which can't be vetoes by any other politician, and couple that with a 5 year ban to hold any of the top-500 political positions (president, parliament, senate, ministries) if vote passes. It won't help that much and will rarely succeed, but it's better than nothing. Definitely better than toothless, vague and potentially totalitarian legislations like the one described in the OP.
pessimizer 2y ago
What's the rationale for being able to charge people with perjury who lie in court? Are people in court less likely to want to silence their opponents?
- caseysoftware 2y ago
  > What's the rationale for being able to charge people with perjury who lie in court? It's a period bound by topic, time, and location for a matter you were (likely) directly involved in or witnessed.

elric 2y ago

Sure. But what's the alternative? Letting politicians lie through their teeth with impunity? You would think that liars and cheaters wouldn't get (re-)elected, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

constantcrying 2y ago
>But what's the alternative? Debate. An opposition with political power. Separation of powers. Federalism. This is an ancient problem, which has been confronted by different societies in many ways. In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will. Politics is about disagreement about facts.
- viraptor 2y ago
  You can get a debate of multiple people full of lies. Having a debate doesn't change the content. > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked Have you got a specific case in mind? I couldn't find one and multiple articles about Wales refer to it as the first country. So where has it not worked before?
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    >Have you got a specific case in mind? Yes, namely that in all of political history I am not aware of a single case where an idea this awful was even attempted.
    - viraptor 2y ago
      I see. So what you meant was "it was never tried" rather than «In no society has "banning lying" ever worked», which is a very different thing.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > Politics is about disagreement about facts. That only works when both sides have respect for the truth and facts and disagree in good faith. When one side becomes unhinged and unmoored from reality (cf Trump, UK Tories, etc.), things go horribly wrong.
- Bostonian 2y ago
  It's also a disagreement about values. For example, voters who align with the two political parties know what abortion is but disagree about when it should be legal.
- Towaway69 2y ago
  Constructive debate - debate that doesn’t criticise the messenger, debate that constructively searches for optimal solution for all and not just the few.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will. Politics is about disagreement about facts. Many political systems implement ethical guidelines and laws to minimize lying, especially in formal settings like courtrooms and official statements. Why hold politics to a lesser standard? > In no society has "banning lying" ever worked and it never will There have been periods and societies where strong cultural or legal norms against lying have fostered more honest political environments. Ancient Athens had ostracism, where citizens could vote to exile those seen as harmful to the state, including habitual liars. There used to be laws about lying through your teeth on news broadcasts.. While not perfect, removing them hasn't exactly been healthy for democracy, has it?
Yizahi 2y ago
Legislate an easy, fast and unencumbered process to vote ANY politician out of the system by simple popular majority vote which can't be vetoes by any other politician, and couple that with a 5 year ban to hold any of the top-500 political positions (president, parliament, senate, ministries) if vote passes. It won't help that much and will rarely succeed, but it's better than nothing. Definitely better than toothless, vague and potentially totalitarian legislations like the one described in the OP.

pessimizer 2y ago

What's the rationale for being able to charge people with perjury who lie in court? Are people in court less likely to want to silence their opponents?

caseysoftware 2y ago
> What's the rationale for being able to charge people with perjury who lie in court? It's a period bound by topic, time, and location for a matter you were (likely) directly involved in or witnessed.