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Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.

achenet 2y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.
jve 2y ago
> So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.
- aydyn 2y ago
  i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  > You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really. And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good. That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      > But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul. Only applies to people who mostly focused on themselves. I'd argue that most working people have the opposite problem: they have to focus on everybody else's problems but not theirs. I'm only working towards tangible greater goods. Including my own inner peace.
throwaway84751 2y ago
It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best for them, and you may not like it but that is what you agreed to. At the same time, they only pay for your work and not your soul. You need to keep a balance between work and you as a person. Unfortunately there are many toxic workplaces out there, and if I ended up "trapped" with no escape, I would probably consider things differently. But when you finally escape, keep an open mind and try to put your bad experiences behind you.
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore. I did put that behind me after switching jobs. My initial outlook and attitude on professional life was that I need to try hard and stay positive and help everyone. I expected other people to work for common goals, put their own goals aside, and be friendly. As in school, that mostly lead to abuse. I'm only advocating against trying too hard because I've hurt myself with it. As a child, I was taught to go the extra mile, work in a sustainable manner and never blame anyone. At work, I have never refused to work on a problem because it's not my fault or someone else would be a better fit for it - and that makes me a very good scapegoat and a fine target for impossible requests. Guess what happened? I'm right now stuck with a person who is asking daily for something I have explained to be impossible, and does not accept my answer. So he asks again. I have no idea what to do. I can't set boundaries or take care of myself, so I'm a bad employee and a bad person who doesn't try enough. Great.
  - throwaway84751 2y ago
    It sounds like you have ended up in a bad situation. There's no real suggestion I can provide for how you can improve your situation, other than to try to find a way to disconnect. (Meetups, walking, museums, hobbies). Maybe that means talking to a professional therapist to find out how you can handle the situation. They get paid to help you, and there is no shame in that

achenet 2y ago

I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.

fabioborellini 2y ago
We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.

jve 2y ago

> So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.

aydyn 2y ago
i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
pdimitar 2y ago
> You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.
- fifilura 2y ago
  I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really. And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good. That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    > But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul. Only applies to people who mostly focused on themselves. I'd argue that most working people have the opposite problem: they have to focus on everybody else's problems but not theirs. I'm only working towards tangible greater goods. Including my own inner peace.

throwaway84751 2y ago

It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best for them, and you may not like it but that is what you agreed to. At the same time, they only pay for your work and not your soul. You need to keep a balance between work and you as a person. Unfortunately there are many toxic workplaces out there, and if I ended up "trapped" with no escape, I would probably consider things differently. But when you finally escape, keep an open mind and try to put your bad experiences behind you.

fabioborellini 2y ago
I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore. I did put that behind me after switching jobs. My initial outlook and attitude on professional life was that I need to try hard and stay positive and help everyone. I expected other people to work for common goals, put their own goals aside, and be friendly. As in school, that mostly lead to abuse. I'm only advocating against trying too hard because I've hurt myself with it. As a child, I was taught to go the extra mile, work in a sustainable manner and never blame anyone. At work, I have never refused to work on a problem because it's not my fault or someone else would be a better fit for it - and that makes me a very good scapegoat and a fine target for impossible requests. Guess what happened? I'm right now stuck with a person who is asking daily for something I have explained to be impossible, and does not accept my answer. So he asks again. I have no idea what to do. I can't set boundaries or take care of myself, so I'm a bad employee and a bad person who doesn't try enough. Great.
- throwaway84751 2y ago
  It sounds like you have ended up in a bad situation. There's no real suggestion I can provide for how you can improve your situation, other than to try to find a way to disconnect. (Meetups, walking, museums, hobbies). Maybe that means talking to a professional therapist to find out how you can handle the situation. They get paid to help you, and there is no shame in that