5 ms·

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium,

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions than the vast majority of humans

fabioborellini 2y ago
Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.
- achenet 2y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.
  - fabioborellini 2y ago
    We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.
- jve 2y ago
  > So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.
  - aydyn 2y ago
    i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    > You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.
    - fifilura 2y ago
      I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really. And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good. That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        > But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul. Only applies to people who mostly focused on themselves. I'd argue that most working people have the opposite problem: they have to focus on everybody else's problems but not theirs. I'm only working towards tangible greater goods. Including my own inner peace.
- throwaway84751 2y ago
  It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best for them, and you may not like it but that is what you agreed to. At the same time, they only pay for your work and not your soul. You need to keep a balance between work and you as a person. Unfortunately there are many toxic workplaces out there, and if I ended up "trapped" with no escape, I would probably consider things differently. But when you finally escape, keep an open mind and try to put your bad experiences behind you.
  - fabioborellini 2y ago
    I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore. I did put that behind me after switching jobs. My initial outlook and attitude on professional life was that I need to try hard and stay positive and help everyone. I expected other people to work for common goals, put their own goals aside, and be friendly. As in school, that mostly lead to abuse. I'm only advocating against trying too hard because I've hurt myself with it. As a child, I was taught to go the extra mile, work in a sustainable manner and never blame anyone. At work, I have never refused to work on a problem because it's not my fault or someone else would be a better fit for it - and that makes me a very good scapegoat and a fine target for impossible requests. Guess what happened? I'm right now stuck with a person who is asking daily for something I have explained to be impossible, and does not accept my answer. So he asks again. I have no idea what to do. I can't set boundaries or take care of myself, so I'm a bad employee and a bad person who doesn't try enough. Great.
    - throwaway84751 2y ago
      It sounds like you have ended up in a bad situation. There's no real suggestion I can provide for how you can improve your situation, other than to try to find a way to disconnect. (Meetups, walking, museums, hobbies). Maybe that means talking to a professional therapist to find out how you can handle the situation. They get paid to help you, and there is no shame in that
freilanzer 2y ago
I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.
- smackeyacky 2y ago
  Merchant banking. I miss those bonuses
- astura 2y ago
  I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      Well the original notion here was > Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.
        collingreen 2y ago
        This is too angry of a reply to someone adding their personal experience onto your comment about how the world is. I appreciate their anecdote refuting the claim; I think it makes a better discussion than just superlatives so I think you should get back to your point (which I mostly align with) instead of attack them on "just because you showed an example where my rule isn't true doesn't make my rule not true".
Elinvynia 2y ago
Make the company 100 millions and you are lucky to see more than 10k of it. If you believe otherwise I would question your real life experience.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  I’m not saying it’s perfectly proportional to the value created, I was challenging the notion that devs are these wages slaves chained to their desks who never get anything extra while their managers swim in money
- rustcleaner 2y ago
  While ad hominem is a fallacious way to handle a debate, it is a great way to determine motive for and if debate is even worthwhile.
OvbiousError 2y ago
Maybe this is a US vs Europe thing? I'm in the latter region, where I am there's a ceiling for dev salaries, virtually the only way to break through is to become a manager. It's also very uncommon to share the companies success.
- hinkley 2y ago
  Only twice have I worked for a manager who thought it was unethical to ask the devs to work hours they themselves would not work. The notion that devs have better hours than managers is either a fiction or conflating managers with founders. Who do often work ridiculous hours and expect everyone else to do it too - and enthusiastically - even though they’re the only ones with a stake in the outcome.

fabioborellini 2y ago

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.

achenet 2y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.
jve 2y ago
> So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.
- aydyn 2y ago
  i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  > You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really. And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good. That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      > But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul. Only applies to people who mostly focused on themselves. I'd argue that most working people have the opposite problem: they have to focus on everybody else's problems but not theirs. I'm only working towards tangible greater goods. Including my own inner peace.
throwaway84751 2y ago
It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best for them, and you may not like it but that is what you agreed to. At the same time, they only pay for your work and not your soul. You need to keep a balance between work and you as a person. Unfortunately there are many toxic workplaces out there, and if I ended up "trapped" with no escape, I would probably consider things differently. But when you finally escape, keep an open mind and try to put your bad experiences behind you.
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore. I did put that behind me after switching jobs. My initial outlook and attitude on professional life was that I need to try hard and stay positive and help everyone. I expected other people to work for common goals, put their own goals aside, and be friendly. As in school, that mostly lead to abuse. I'm only advocating against trying too hard because I've hurt myself with it. As a child, I was taught to go the extra mile, work in a sustainable manner and never blame anyone. At work, I have never refused to work on a problem because it's not my fault or someone else would be a better fit for it - and that makes me a very good scapegoat and a fine target for impossible requests. Guess what happened? I'm right now stuck with a person who is asking daily for something I have explained to be impossible, and does not accept my answer. So he asks again. I have no idea what to do. I can't set boundaries or take care of myself, so I'm a bad employee and a bad person who doesn't try enough. Great.
  - throwaway84751 2y ago
    It sounds like you have ended up in a bad situation. There's no real suggestion I can provide for how you can improve your situation, other than to try to find a way to disconnect. (Meetups, walking, museums, hobbies). Maybe that means talking to a professional therapist to find out how you can handle the situation. They get paid to help you, and there is no shame in that

freilanzer 2y ago

I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.

smackeyacky 2y ago
Merchant banking. I miss those bonuses
astura 2y ago
I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    Well the original notion here was > Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.
      - collingreen 2y ago
        This is too angry of a reply to someone adding their personal experience onto your comment about how the world is. I appreciate their anecdote refuting the claim; I think it makes a better discussion than just superlatives so I think you should get back to your point (which I mostly align with) instead of attack them on "just because you showed an example where my rule isn't true doesn't make my rule not true".

Elinvynia 2y ago

Make the company 100 millions and you are lucky to see more than 10k of it. If you believe otherwise I would question your real life experience.

portaouflop 2y ago
I’m not saying it’s perfectly proportional to the value created, I was challenging the notion that devs are these wages slaves chained to their desks who never get anything extra while their managers swim in money
rustcleaner 2y ago
While ad hominem is a fallacious way to handle a debate, it is a great way to determine motive for and if debate is even worthwhile.

OvbiousError 2y ago

Maybe this is a US vs Europe thing? I'm in the latter region, where I am there's a ceiling for dev salaries, virtually the only way to break through is to become a manager. It's also very uncommon to share the companies success.

hinkley 2y ago
Only twice have I worked for a manager who thought it was unethical to ask the devs to work hours they themselves would not work. The notion that devs have better hours than managers is either a fiction or conflating managers with founders. Who do often work ridiculous hours and expect everyone else to do it too - and enthusiastically - even though they’re the only ones with a stake in the outcome.