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> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make s

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespeople and managers usually consider technical guys pariah. They can always be outsourced or otherwise replaced, and they can be blamed, for example for failing to meet impossible targets. If there's success, it always is a manager's achievement. Developers also get roughly the same pay for both working minimum and for screwing their lives and healths on powerpoint-driven death marches. The compensation for extraordinary success goes to shareholders, and maybe managers or even salespeople.

ekianjo 2y ago
> get roughly the same pay where?
portaouflop 2y ago
My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions than the vast majority of humans
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.
  - achenet 2y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.
    - fabioborellini 2y ago
      We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.
  - jve 2y ago
    > So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.
    - aydyn 2y ago
      i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
    - 2y ago
- freilanzer 2y ago
  I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.
  - smackeyacky 2y ago
    Merchant banking. I miss those bonuses
  - astura 2y ago
    I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?
      - portaouflop 2y ago
        Well the original notion here was > Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.
        collingreen 2y ago
        This is too angry of a reply to someone adding their personal experience onto your comment about how the world is. I appreciate their anecdote refuting the claim; I think it makes a better discussion than just superlatives so I think you should get back to your point (which I mostly align with) instead of attack them on "just because you showed an example where my rule isn't true doesn't make my rule not true".
- Elinvynia 2y ago
  Make the company 100 millions and you are lucky to see more than 10k of it. If you believe otherwise I would question your real life experience.
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    I’m not saying it’s perfectly proportional to the value created, I was challenging the notion that devs are these wages slaves chained to their desks who never get anything extra while their managers swim in money
  - rustcleaner 2y ago
    While ad hominem is a fallacious way to handle a debate, it is a great way to determine motive for and if debate is even worthwhile.
- OvbiousError 2y ago
  Maybe this is a US vs Europe thing? I'm in the latter region, where I am there's a ceiling for dev salaries, virtually the only way to break through is to become a manager. It's also very uncommon to share the companies success.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    Only twice have I worked for a manager who thought it was unethical to ask the devs to work hours they themselves would not work. The notion that devs have better hours than managers is either a fiction or conflating managers with founders. Who do often work ridiculous hours and expect everyone else to do it too - and enthusiastically - even though they’re the only ones with a stake in the outcome.
b112 2y ago
Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me more!" Where I come from, "extraordinary achievement" is just "doing your job". (Are you advocating something else? I'm not suggesting free overtime, just doing the best job you can.)
- achenet 2y ago
  that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, spending any effort beyond the minimum at a salaried job is a waste of effort - the expected value of that extra effort is nil, unless you own significant stock. This may be why many tech companies offer equity as part of their compensation.
  - js8 2y ago
    I call it (doing the bare minimum required) "organizational laziness" and I hate it. It might be rational, but it leads to mediocrity.
    - aydyn 2y ago
      whats mediocre is willingly being a cog, in my opinion. Cogs dont get any credit.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      OK, hire me, and if I over-perform and help you achieve a business target, I want a triple salary next month. Or better still, 20% of the extra profit. No? Then you'll keep seeing what you call "mediocrity". I am a pretty good programmer and have literally saved businesses, several times over the course of my career. Never again though. A pat on the back is not enough of a reward.
sveme 2y ago
If that is your experience with companies and managers, you have to choose your jobs more wisely. In good companies managers were engineers at some point as well and know what is important technically and motivationally.
chickenchase-rd 2y ago
Its rare in any field to be compensated for any extraordinary achievement. But these are the people I like to work with.
- fabioborellini 2y ago
  Surgeons save lives which they may find important and motivating per se. Grinding meaningless Javascript to deliver more advertisements and conflict to people is neither motivating nor important, or at least it shouldn't be to a responsive person.
  - throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
    1) Not all surgeons save lives 2) Not everyone can be a doctor We can all find meaning in our own work.
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      The best paid ones work on vanity projects.
IanCal 2y ago
> why should they give everything and get nothing back They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit. The person you are replying to isn't saying "you need to go the extra mile to make profits" they're saying "you should be focused on making money for the company, not on personal preferences in your code".
- vulnbludog 2y ago
  [dead]
- hinkley 2y ago
  > They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit. But GP is saying everyone except the devs is there for status and fat bonuses. You’re talking like a defector.

ekianjo 2y ago

> get roughly the same pay where?

portaouflop 2y ago

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions than the vast majority of humans

fabioborellini 2y ago
Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.
- achenet 2y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.
  - fabioborellini 2y ago
    We have the laws in place in Finland, too, but they aren't enforced in practice. So, people who refuse to obey them get an advantage against people with integrity. The workers protection authorities are not resourced to do any individual checkups, and going to court against a company would take years and possibly leads to lifetime in debt. So the practical way to resolve this is to change companies.
- jve 2y ago
  > So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job. Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.
  - aydyn 2y ago
    i think whether it is fair isnt the right question (which is subjective and I disagree anyway) but whether it is rational and advantageous for you. What benefit do you get for rushing a job and shipping shitty code? I think the downsides vastly outweigh the upside. If a company is that pressed for time, theyre not going to fire you. Take your time and do things right, dont Boeing it up.
  - 2y ago
freilanzer 2y ago
I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.
- smackeyacky 2y ago
  Merchant banking. I miss those bonuses
- astura 2y ago
  I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      Well the original notion here was > Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.
        collingreen 2y ago
        This is too angry of a reply to someone adding their personal experience onto your comment about how the world is. I appreciate their anecdote refuting the claim; I think it makes a better discussion than just superlatives so I think you should get back to your point (which I mostly align with) instead of attack them on "just because you showed an example where my rule isn't true doesn't make my rule not true".
Elinvynia 2y ago
Make the company 100 millions and you are lucky to see more than 10k of it. If you believe otherwise I would question your real life experience.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  I’m not saying it’s perfectly proportional to the value created, I was challenging the notion that devs are these wages slaves chained to their desks who never get anything extra while their managers swim in money
- rustcleaner 2y ago
  While ad hominem is a fallacious way to handle a debate, it is a great way to determine motive for and if debate is even worthwhile.
OvbiousError 2y ago
Maybe this is a US vs Europe thing? I'm in the latter region, where I am there's a ceiling for dev salaries, virtually the only way to break through is to become a manager. It's also very uncommon to share the companies success.
- hinkley 2y ago
  Only twice have I worked for a manager who thought it was unethical to ask the devs to work hours they themselves would not work. The notion that devs have better hours than managers is either a fiction or conflating managers with founders. Who do often work ridiculous hours and expect everyone else to do it too - and enthusiastically - even though they’re the only ones with a stake in the outcome.

b112 2y ago

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me more!" Where I come from, "extraordinary achievement" is just "doing your job". (Are you advocating something else? I'm not suggesting free overtime, just doing the best job you can.)

achenet 2y ago
that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, spending any effort beyond the minimum at a salaried job is a waste of effort - the expected value of that extra effort is nil, unless you own significant stock. This may be why many tech companies offer equity as part of their compensation.
- js8 2y ago
  I call it (doing the bare minimum required) "organizational laziness" and I hate it. It might be rational, but it leads to mediocrity.
  - aydyn 2y ago
    whats mediocre is willingly being a cog, in my opinion. Cogs dont get any credit.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    OK, hire me, and if I over-perform and help you achieve a business target, I want a triple salary next month. Or better still, 20% of the extra profit. No? Then you'll keep seeing what you call "mediocrity". I am a pretty good programmer and have literally saved businesses, several times over the course of my career. Never again though. A pat on the back is not enough of a reward.

sveme 2y ago

If that is your experience with companies and managers, you have to choose your jobs more wisely. In good companies managers were engineers at some point as well and know what is important technically and motivationally.

chickenchase-rd 2y ago

Its rare in any field to be compensated for any extraordinary achievement. But these are the people I like to work with.

fabioborellini 2y ago
Surgeons save lives which they may find important and motivating per se. Grinding meaningless Javascript to deliver more advertisements and conflict to people is neither motivating nor important, or at least it shouldn't be to a responsive person.
- throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
  1) Not all surgeons save lives 2) Not everyone can be a doctor We can all find meaning in our own work.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    The best paid ones work on vanity projects.

IanCal 2y ago

> why should they give everything and get nothing back They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit. The person you are replying to isn't saying "you need to go the extra mile to make profits" they're saying "you should be focused on making money for the company, not on personal preferences in your code".

vulnbludog 2y ago
[dead]
hinkley 2y ago
> They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit. But GP is saying everyone except the devs is there for status and fat bonuses. You’re talking like a defector.