4 ms·

That is because the USA is low context while China is high context. For more about this and related topics, read https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00IHGVQ9I/ref=t

by btilly 2y ago

That is because the USA is low context while China is high context. For more about this and related topics, read https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00IHGVQ9I/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00IHGVQ9I/ref=tmm_kin_swatch....

lukan 2y ago
"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd. It's no surprise that when they try and talk to each other, chaos breaks out." Oh, it is a book about stereotypes. Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point, I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating.
- forgotusername6 2y ago
  Did you read the beginning of the book or just read that one quote? The first chapter on a story about meeting etiquette in Chinese business culture is actually quite insightful. It certainly resonates with me a least. I wish I had a manual so I knew how to behave in a meeting with people from different cultures. We are not all the same and there is no one size fits all way of behaving in a meeting.
  - lukan 2y ago
    I stopped at that quote. There are no doubt interesting anecdota inside, that might be insightful and there is no doubt some truth to some clichés, but I seriously doubt a box so big as "asians" has much value. And even for "small" boxes like "germans", there are for example great differences between east and west germany (seperated by the iron curtain and different systems for over 40 years) - but more so for the older and less for the younger generation. Etc. So reading in general about cultural differences when meeting someone from that culture can be surely be helpful - but in my experience it is not useful for taking such advice by the letter.
    - lmm 2y ago
      The alternative to considering "asians" or "germans" is probably not understanding each person's cultural background individually but rather putting everyone in a single "world" box. Which is the biggest and most useless one of all. Once you have a good understanding of a typical german you can of course zoom in and get more detail, but if you refuse to learn about germans in general then that's going to make you less understanding of both an old person from east germany and a young person from west germany, not more.
      - lukan 2y ago
        There is also the alternative of treating humans as humans first, if you don't know much about them, except their looks and their passport nationality. And not assuming one has these and those traits, because they look "asian", but were raised in the US for example. I know I met many people from many backgrounds all over the world and my thinking in boxes default mode, was never really helpful, but often very wrong. So it is good to know what some common traits are for a person from a certain cultural background, but not with the assumption that the individual in front of you is in fact like this. That can also offend people. For example some cultures do not like to shake hands. Germans usually do, but personally I also don't. So just be conscious and try to read body language, would be my advice. And in case of doubt, asking a person on the side and not in front of everyone usually works to work around missunderstandings.
        kaba0 2y ago
        Well, the differences between western cultures are less pronounced, but I do think that knowing, say, Chinese etiquette when meeting mainland Chinese people is essential to not come across accidentally as rude. There are significant differences there, and natural body language does differ with culture. Nonetheless, I agree with your general point/sentiment.
        lukan 2y ago
        "Chinese etiquette when meeting mainland Chinese people is essential to not come across accidentally as rude" For sure. And I read up about any culture I visit the first time. But chinese are quite different from mongolians and thais for example. So my issue was especially with "asian". This term is allmost meaningless to me, as it puts billions of different people in one basket.
- tommiegannert 2y ago
  > Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point "The Joy of Reading Books You Don't Understand" It seems you didn't even try to understand The Culture Map, and opted for a strawman. > I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating. You're trying to use it as a cookbook. If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense. We can still be unique flowers with a wide variance, even if cultural regions have shifted medians.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense" Well, to be honest, I doubt that. By now I have read some examples from the book and the way he uses nationality in absolute terms and placing them on scales is deeply offputting to me. So far I often experienced situations where people behaved differently, than what I would have expected - but I do not recall any situation where placing those people on mathematical sounding scales would have explained their reactions better. With some thinking and asking they all could be explained and resolved in a normal way. To me the whole thing sounds like something that sounds good and easy on first glance - but falls apart when you look deeper. The author as a "international business expert" likely knows his way around different cultures simply by experience - not because he makes cultural meassurments in his head. But he made a goodselling book, so good for him. And good for you that you find value in it. I don't. So maybe I "didn't even try to understand The Culture Map" - or maybe I just have a different opinion.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Culture correlates strongly with nationality, you are throwing away a very powerful tool just for an ideological reason. And no, often it is too late once you have already made the mistake, first impressions matter and you massively improve your chances if you take their nationality into account. Sure they might take your nationality into account and adapt to you instead, as you say that often works for you, good, but some people actually wants to learn to adapt to others.
- sfink 2y ago
  If you would like an answer to that, then I would suggest reading the section titled "Being open to individual differences is not enough", and perhaps the quoted passage in the later section "Tasting the water you swim in". You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are, but that's not incompatible with what she says. Don't mistake the blurb for the content. I agree that the blurb is a bit obnoxious, but then, its function is to appeal to (or piss off) someone enough that they'll pause and consider buying the book (maybe if only to prove how wrong it is). I have not read the book but I have heard the author speak on the topic, and in my opinion she adequately addresses your complaint. I personally still find her message a bit oversimplified, but isn't that what we're talking about? That's what you have to do in order to get your readers/listeners to understand what you're trying to communicate! Or do you? As in the original article here, there can be benefit to reading things where the author doesn't try to make it easy. Perhaps they put down the messy truth in disconnected fragments, or they pile up lots of examples that don't quite fit any simple orthogonal dimensions of explanation. Such compendiums incorporate deep insight to anyone willing and able to put in the effort to derive it for themselves. Let the reader figure it out by meditating on them, or rereading them 100 times, or trying them out in practice, or whatever.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Thanks, that is a more nuanced perspective, so maybe I should give it a try. "You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are" Possible. I am definitely "german" in many ways. I positivly associate with the "thinker and philosopher" tradition. But I hate beer culture. But I also still have a unconscious deep rooted believe, that only german engeneering is good. But when I notice that, I stop with "wtf? I know that is BS". Those are the stereotypes I want to get away from. But when other people see me mainly as "german" - they push me into this role.
jesterson 2y ago
that's extreme oversimplification of multifaceted topic.
- btilly 2y ago
  All models are simplifications. High versus low context is only one of many dimensions in its model.
sfink 2y ago
I have not read the book but I have heard Erin speak, and I do find the high/low context dimension to be very powerful in explaining a great many things. I don't see how it applies all that well to this one, though, other than perhaps explaining one way in which something can come across as dense or cryptic. Specifically, you could use it to say that a text is embedded in the context in which it was written, and so for example what is not said can speak louder than what is said. But I don't see how it explains differences in what is expected of a listener/reader/learner. I may very well just be missing it.
- btilly 2y ago
  It is kind of the central point of that idea? As Erin explains in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oYfhTC9lIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oYfhTC9lIQ, the question is how much context the speaker can assume that the listener has. In a low context culture, the speaker assumes that the listener doesn't have much shared context. And therefore it is on the speaker to be explicit. In a high context culture, the speaker can assume that the listener will fill in a lot from that shared context. And it is on the listener to do so.

by btilly 2y ago

lukan 2y ago

"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd. It's no surprise that when they try and talk to each other, chaos breaks out." Oh, it is a book about stereotypes. Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point, I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating.

forgotusername6 2y ago
Did you read the beginning of the book or just read that one quote? The first chapter on a story about meeting etiquette in Chinese business culture is actually quite insightful. It certainly resonates with me a least. I wish I had a manual so I knew how to behave in a meeting with people from different cultures. We are not all the same and there is no one size fits all way of behaving in a meeting.
- lukan 2y ago
  I stopped at that quote. There are no doubt interesting anecdota inside, that might be insightful and there is no doubt some truth to some clichés, but I seriously doubt a box so big as "asians" has much value. And even for "small" boxes like "germans", there are for example great differences between east and west germany (seperated by the iron curtain and different systems for over 40 years) - but more so for the older and less for the younger generation. Etc. So reading in general about cultural differences when meeting someone from that culture can be surely be helpful - but in my experience it is not useful for taking such advice by the letter.
  - lmm 2y ago
    The alternative to considering "asians" or "germans" is probably not understanding each person's cultural background individually but rather putting everyone in a single "world" box. Which is the biggest and most useless one of all. Once you have a good understanding of a typical german you can of course zoom in and get more detail, but if you refuse to learn about germans in general then that's going to make you less understanding of both an old person from east germany and a young person from west germany, not more.
    - lukan 2y ago
      There is also the alternative of treating humans as humans first, if you don't know much about them, except their looks and their passport nationality. And not assuming one has these and those traits, because they look "asian", but were raised in the US for example. I know I met many people from many backgrounds all over the world and my thinking in boxes default mode, was never really helpful, but often very wrong. So it is good to know what some common traits are for a person from a certain cultural background, but not with the assumption that the individual in front of you is in fact like this. That can also offend people. For example some cultures do not like to shake hands. Germans usually do, but personally I also don't. So just be conscious and try to read body language, would be my advice. And in case of doubt, asking a person on the side and not in front of everyone usually works to work around missunderstandings.
      - kaba0 2y ago
        Well, the differences between western cultures are less pronounced, but I do think that knowing, say, Chinese etiquette when meeting mainland Chinese people is essential to not come across accidentally as rude. There are significant differences there, and natural body language does differ with culture. Nonetheless, I agree with your general point/sentiment.
        lukan 2y ago
        "Chinese etiquette when meeting mainland Chinese people is essential to not come across accidentally as rude" For sure. And I read up about any culture I visit the first time. But chinese are quite different from mongolians and thais for example. So my issue was especially with "asian". This term is allmost meaningless to me, as it puts billions of different people in one basket.
tommiegannert 2y ago
> Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point "The Joy of Reading Books You Don't Understand" It seems you didn't even try to understand The Culture Map, and opted for a strawman. > I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating. You're trying to use it as a cookbook. If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense. We can still be unique flowers with a wide variance, even if cultural regions have shifted medians.
- lukan 2y ago
  "If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense" Well, to be honest, I doubt that. By now I have read some examples from the book and the way he uses nationality in absolute terms and placing them on scales is deeply offputting to me. So far I often experienced situations where people behaved differently, than what I would have expected - but I do not recall any situation where placing those people on mathematical sounding scales would have explained their reactions better. With some thinking and asking they all could be explained and resolved in a normal way. To me the whole thing sounds like something that sounds good and easy on first glance - but falls apart when you look deeper. The author as a "international business expert" likely knows his way around different cultures simply by experience - not because he makes cultural meassurments in his head. But he made a goodselling book, so good for him. And good for you that you find value in it. I don't. So maybe I "didn't even try to understand The Culture Map" - or maybe I just have a different opinion.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Culture correlates strongly with nationality, you are throwing away a very powerful tool just for an ideological reason. And no, often it is too late once you have already made the mistake, first impressions matter and you massively improve your chances if you take their nationality into account. Sure they might take your nationality into account and adapt to you instead, as you say that often works for you, good, but some people actually wants to learn to adapt to others.
sfink 2y ago
If you would like an answer to that, then I would suggest reading the section titled "Being open to individual differences is not enough", and perhaps the quoted passage in the later section "Tasting the water you swim in". You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are, but that's not incompatible with what she says. Don't mistake the blurb for the content. I agree that the blurb is a bit obnoxious, but then, its function is to appeal to (or piss off) someone enough that they'll pause and consider buying the book (maybe if only to prove how wrong it is). I have not read the book but I have heard the author speak on the topic, and in my opinion she adequately addresses your complaint. I personally still find her message a bit oversimplified, but isn't that what we're talking about? That's what you have to do in order to get your readers/listeners to understand what you're trying to communicate! Or do you? As in the original article here, there can be benefit to reading things where the author doesn't try to make it easy. Perhaps they put down the messy truth in disconnected fragments, or they pile up lots of examples that don't quite fit any simple orthogonal dimensions of explanation. Such compendiums incorporate deep insight to anyone willing and able to put in the effort to derive it for themselves. Let the reader figure it out by meditating on them, or rereading them 100 times, or trying them out in practice, or whatever.
- lukan 2y ago
  Thanks, that is a more nuanced perspective, so maybe I should give it a try. "You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are" Possible. I am definitely "german" in many ways. I positivly associate with the "thinker and philosopher" tradition. But I hate beer culture. But I also still have a unconscious deep rooted believe, that only german engeneering is good. But when I notice that, I stop with "wtf? I know that is BS". Those are the stereotypes I want to get away from. But when other people see me mainly as "german" - they push me into this role.

jesterson 2y ago

that's extreme oversimplification of multifaceted topic.

btilly 2y ago
All models are simplifications. High versus low context is only one of many dimensions in its model.

sfink 2y ago

I have not read the book but I have heard Erin speak, and I do find the high/low context dimension to be very powerful in explaining a great many things. I don't see how it applies all that well to this one, though, other than perhaps explaining one way in which something can come across as dense or cryptic. Specifically, you could use it to say that a text is embedded in the context in which it was written, and so for example what is not said can speak louder than what is said. But I don't see how it explains differences in what is expected of a listener/reader/learner. I may very well just be missing it.

btilly 2y ago
It is kind of the central point of that idea? As Erin explains in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oYfhTC9lIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oYfhTC9lIQ, the question is how much context the speaker can assume that the listener has. In a low context culture, the speaker assumes that the listener doesn't have much shared context. And therefore it is on the speaker to be explicit. In a high context culture, the speaker can assume that the listener will fill in a lot from that shared context. And it is on the listener to do so.