10 ms·

Magenta - "It is fully binary compatible with iPhone OS 5.0"

326 points by mparlane 14y ago

tantalor 14y ago
The "teaser", http://crna.cc/test2.png http://crna.cc/test2.png
- apaprocki 14y ago
  Liking the ANSI. Maybe someone here has a few iCE/ACiD contacts laying around to make some serious art for it.
  - christina_b 14y ago
    I'm glad you like it.
zmanji 14y ago
If this can run CoreFoundation, then can't anyone with the iOS SDK target this platform with no modifications to the SDK?
- Xuzz 14y ago
  Yep, that's how the binaries for it are currently built: with the iPhone SDK. However, higher-level stuff hasn't been developed (e.g. graphics), and the native iOS libraries would need emulation of additional lower-level services (like IOKit for hardware interaction) to run.
10dpd 14y ago
"You may ask, why am I doing this? The answer is: no f'ing idea :)" Love it.
- shiven 14y ago
  No graphics. No problem. Great, open (source) system to test iOS internals and hack at the lower level stuff. Also, nice way to test exploits, proof of concept backdoors, virii, trojans and the like without requiring major investment into the apple ecosystem. Maybe, even the beginnings of a third option besides Android and iOS ? Thanks!
  - taligent 14y ago
    Maybe Meego would be a good fit ? But if she could get this working on Android it would be huge. I guarantee you could get a million off Kickstarter if you decided to be a little evil and stoke the fanboy flames a bit on Engadget/Reddit etc.
    - uhhyeahdude 14y ago
      Dude (or female, not sure), that is and evil an brilliant idea. Even if it never made it on Kickstarter, it would certainly start a movement.
  - geon 14y ago
    How could you test exploits, when the underlying os core is linux, not darwin, and all higher level libraries are completely different implementations as well?
    - tryke 14y ago
      Not to mention the complete lack of Sandboxing and Mandatory Code Signing?
  - flatline3 14y ago
    As cool as this project is, virtualizing OS X -- or emulating an ARM system for iOS -- is much more likely to be useful for testing iOS internals / lower-level bits without requiring Apple hardware. For example: http://www.iemu.org/index.php/Main_Page http://www.iemu.org/index.php/Main_Page
- bretthopper 14y ago
  Actual quote is "You may ask, why am I doing this? The answer is: no fucking idea :)" Not sure why you would censor that when the author didn't.
SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
It's a cute tech demo, but: * Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away. I think the submission title is deceptive -- by "fully binary compatible" the developer means that it runs executables compiled for iOS.
- christina_b 14y ago
  Aw.
  - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
    Sorry. Cool project, but the headline implied (to me) app compatibility. Your page was much more clear (he took the quote out of context); my beef was with the person who posted it on HN with a deceptive headline. If it had instead said "full binary compatibility with DARWIN", or iOS 5 Darwin, it would have been clear. And, by the way, if you hadn't said "go away" to people who wanted app compatibility, I might have been less annoyed by the deception. OF COURSE people want app compatibility. It's the core coolness of the project's potential! And maybe someday you'll get a crowd of people around you that can help achieve that. But telling them to go away isn't going to help.
    - nooop 14y ago
      If the headline meant app compability, it would probably have been written like: "It is fully app compatible with iPhone OS 5.0"
      - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
        Looking at the headline, my first thought wasn't that I'd be able to run arbitrary iOS apps, but that it was a project with that goal. To me it was a bait-and-switch, where not only was it not a goal, but Christina is somewhat rude to people who thought it might be a goal (sorry Christina). "I have this cool tech that could be used to run iOS apps -- and I have no intention of ever making it run iOS apps, because that's a crazy idea, now go away for even thinking about it!" System emulators (ahem, WINE, but tons of others exist) that do the level of emulation Christina scoffs at have been around for a long time, and it's very much not a crazy idea to start one. By yourself, maybe it is, but given the amount of hype this generated quickly, there would obviously be other people willing to jump on board.
sounds 14y ago
Is anyone else theorizing about Apple's response? whois crna.cc: WhoisGuard protected. WhoisGuard is in L.A; a subpoena and "Christina" could find the ICS logo on her site and a DMCA takedown notice for distributing "tools used to violate copyright." crna.cc says "Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No". But Apple is already suing Samsung for the Galaxy Tab, Nexus S, and Epic 4G [1] [2], so unless nobody is interested in taking this idea to completion, Apple could be an enormous target for cloners. To me, it's obvious: unlike hardware, where there are still effective barriers to competition, software like iOS is inherently vulnerable to cloning, copying, and being replaced. [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/04/bad-touchwiz-apple-sues-samsung-for-patent-violations/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/04/bad-touchwiz-apple-sues... [2] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/05/apple-samsung-walk-away-from-the-negotiating-table/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/05/apple-samsung-walk-away...
- christina_b 14y ago
  This does not violate anyone's copyrights.
  - sounds 14y ago
    I don't have to take a position on that to theorize that Apple can use the DMCA to take it down, citing 17 U.S.C. Sec. 1201 (a). [1] [2] Nevertheless I think you're right, it doesn't violate anyone's copyrights. [1] http://chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi#QID91 http://chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi#QID91 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Distribution_of_Circumvention_Tools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Distribution...
    - anextio 14y ago
      Then why haven't they taken down GNUStep and Chameleon? Oh right, because APIs are not copyrightable or patentable and it's absolutely meaningless to attempt to assert ownership over such things. The reason why you're the only one "theorizing" about what Apple will do is because most other people here recognize how patents and copyrights work and why there is a dispute between Apple and Samsung.
christina_b 14y ago
By the way, the sources are up on http://crna.cc/ http://crna.cc/ now.
- taligent 14y ago
  Any thoughts about getting this up on Github ? Would definitely get you some contributors.
  - mparlane 14y ago
    From IRC (don't shoot the messenger, please..): <_Christina_> no github, i dont like revision control
    - lucian1900 14y ago
      I hope she changes her mind. Revision control saved many people's asses throughout history.
    - hahainternet 14y ago
      There's opinionated, then there's reckless.
      - josephkern 14y ago
        Revision control does not need software per se. Keeping multiple directories and files works too (not as well though).
        dexen 14y ago
        Which is what Git does: every commit actually is a directory/file tree and a small note a.k.a. `commit message'. You could re-create the effect by hand, by placing `.commit' file in root of the multiple directories you speak of. However, Git (and any other DVCS) does the bookkeeping and keeps you from missing that one small detail at 4AM. Also, it's much faster to git-commit than to copy 150MB of sources by hand; mostly because Git avoids work where sensible. Ditto for git-diff.
zvrba 14y ago
And this is announced just after the judge has decided APIs are not copyrightable!
ajasmin 14y ago
Does it use some of the open source Darwin code from Apple?
- christina_b 14y ago
  Yes, but the code is under APSL so I'm not violating any copyrights. I'm fully complying with the APSL license.
RandallBrown 14y ago
I'm a little confused as to what this actually is. It's a version of linux that can run apps compiled for the iPhone?
- jurre 14y ago
  Re: apps Will it run iPhone OS apps? No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away.
- ajasmin 14y ago
  From what I understand it is a version of Linux that can run binaries compiled for the iPhone on an ARM chip but doesn't provide any of the higher level Cocoa libraries (i.e. no GUI stuff)
- kvnn 14y ago
  Actually, so am I. Lets go through it together: 1) "Implementation of Darwin" [1] 2) "On top of the Linux kernel" [2] 3) "Binary compatible with iOS 5.0" [3] 4) "The final goal is probably recreating the iPhone OS 1.0 stack" [4] -------- [1] "Darwin forms the core set of components upon which Mac OS X and iOS are based" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) [2] "The main component of most computer operating systems" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) [3] "In computing, a computer that can run the same binary code intended to be run on another computer is said to be binary-compatible" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility [4] "Initial OS release". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#iOS_1.x:_initial_OS_release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#iOS_1.x:_in...
kvnn 14y ago
This is the sort of person that I want to be engaged with: * highly opinionated * driven by personal interest * not afraid to go down the worm hole and come up with little public recognition and enormous personal gain This is the sort of project that makes me grin: * highly engrossing project page * mysterious motivations * unknown implications * legally ambiguous I love this shit. Keep it up, Christina.
- christina_b 14y ago
  I love you.
  - Cushman 14y ago
    HN needs more conversations like this. Edit: Ooh, controversy. I'm quite sincere about this-- love to chat with whoever disagrees.
  - devin 14y ago
    Ha! Well played, Christina. Well played.
- taligent 14y ago
  Is it just me that reads this and is reminded of Linus/Linux ?
- Camillo 14y ago
  This is really weird. When there is a submission about some guy's project, do we evaluate his potential as a mate? Does that become the top comment? What in the world is going on here?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - coob 14y ago
    I think you're misinterpreting 'engaged with' there…
nitrogen 14y ago
I look forward to seeing Phoronix fan the OS war flames by benchmarking Linux running BSD binaries vs. BSD running Linux binaries. More importantly, what planet do you come from, and is it accepting immigrants?
bprater 14y ago
What is Magenta -- in plain english? And what does binary compatible with iOS 5 mean?
- masklinn 14y ago
  > What is Magenta -- in plain english? Not sure what could be clearer than: > Magenta is an implementation of Darwin/BSD on top of the Linux kernel. > And what does binary compatible with iOS 5 mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility That Magenta will run programs compiled for iOS5 unmodified (if they don't use APIs which haven't been reimplemented yet of course)
  - shalmanese 14y ago
    That's not clear at all. This guy has basically built an OS from scratch that can run on iPhones and supports iPhone apps without having to recompile them. Currently, only the base layer has been built so graphics/sound etc do not work but the goal is to emulate the entire iPhone OS. It's based on the linux kernel and the Darwin OS which is the open source core of the Mac OS X.
    - johnbellone 14y ago
      "This guy has basically built an OS from scratch that can run on iPhones and supports iPhone apps without having to recompile them." No, that's completely wrong. Go read it, re-read it, and then do a Google search for binary-compatible.
    - ericmoritz 14y ago
      Think of it as WINE project for iOS. He's building the libraries that iOS code depends on just like WINE recreated all the Windows DLLs so that Windows programs could run on Linux/OSX
      - gcr 14y ago
        She. http://crna.cc/ http://crna.cc/
Rhino55 14y ago
Great, keep up the good work. And don't post to HN until you have something worth showing.
cs702 14y ago
I love it: hacking for the sake of hacking, just to have fun. Christina's announcement reminds me a little bit of Linus Torvalds's 'this won't amount to anything' post to comp.os.minix on August 25, 1991.[1] I'm by no means suggesting or implying that Magenta will be as successful as Linux or anything like that, just that the announcements posted by Christina and Linus strike me as very similar in tone and attitude :-) [1] https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc5a044b?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc...
shuri 14y ago
very cool
tomrod 14y ago
Cool. So what does this mean it can do? Run iPhone OS apps?
- SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
  No. I tried to post that running iPhone apps wasn't even a design goal, but got downvoted. [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4087395 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4087395
sciurus 14y ago
This makes me wonder how long until there is a project that tries to reimplement the ios libraries, similar to what GNUstep is doing for Cocoa. http://www.gnustep.org/ http://www.gnustep.org/
- nglevin 14y ago
  It's not quite what you describe, but Ivan Vučica is currently working on a GSoC project to implement a subset of UIKit with parts of Quartz and CoreAnimation in GNUstep. http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2012/ivucica/11001 http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2012/i... "This proposal covers implementing a flexible animation API compatible with a certain popular existing desktop and mobile platform, as well as adding APIs compatible with a popular mobile platform. This will allow extremely user-friendly interfaces, as well as allow development or porting of applications that use CoreAnimation or UIKit API on platforms that don't yet support it."
flatline3 14y ago
There are a number of past projects very similar to this one. The two I remember off-hand: - http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html -- NetBSD in-kernel COMPAT_MACH / COMPAT_DARWIN support. This got to the point of being able to run XDarwin, which is a pretty major step towards being able to run the WindowServer: http://hcpnet.free.fr/xdarwin.jpeg http://hcpnet.free.fr/xdarwin.jpeg - https://github.com/shinh/maloader https://github.com/shinh/maloader -- A user-space Mach-O binary loader. The only goal was to be able to run Apple's binary toolchain on Linux, which it is able to do. It's very possible to implement the necessary kernel APIs to run Mac / iOS Darwin binaries. Where you run into trouble is the massive software stack that sits on top of those OS APIs. Without $10M or more to spend on development, it's simply not feasible to produce full binary-compatible replacements for Apple's software frameworks. The best you can hope for is to copy over Apple's software from a real installation, and then run it atop your own kernel. I love hacks like this, so god speed to christina_b. This is awesome. To those of you telling the Christina to put her work on github to get contributors, I don't think that is particularly helpful advice. The barrier to entry on a project like this has nothing to do with the SCM being used.
- kqa5 14y ago
  From your first example: "This project is dead due to a lack of interest from users." Do they really mean "lack of interest from other developers"? They shouldn't be doing it for users, they should be doing it for themselves, and to their credit, I think that's often why they do what they do. They have more common sense than the usual. That's why their work is so good. (It's also because they have more of a cathedral-like structure, and not just with respect to the kernel.) Who are these "users" we need interest from? How do we measure interest? Among OS's NetBSD's user base (non-corporate) is very small. This developer chose the Linux kernel not to please users by making the "popular choice" or because it is necessarily the easiest to work with. As the blurb says, it's a matter of driver support. Yes, Godspeed.
  - flatline3 14y ago
    In the case of the NetBSD project, users and developers were the same people, and there wasn't much interest. When looking for people with the necessary skills to contribute, you'll find that the majority qualified individuals are Mac OS X kernel/systems engineers, who already have Apple hardware, and don't have any particular need to support an alternative clone of their existing target platform. This was certainly the case with the NetBSD project. When it was contemporary, I kept tabs on it, but never bothered to contribute -- Mac OS X worked fine for me. Revisiting the problem space now, my development time would be better spent working on the open source alternatives (such as Android), rather than attempting to clone Apple's stack. It's just too big. Personally I work with Android on OMAP4 hardware.
kqa5 14y ago
An open source smartphone OS that - you can compile yourself easily - which has a real command line and - is not controlled by some company. This would be most welcome. Palm-sized "UNIX". A true opens source "UNIX phone". No company-controlled virtual machines or high level GUI frameworks. Lower complexity, less bloat, same communication functionality.
duaneb 14y ago
How do you deal with mach/whatever calls inside the darwin userland? Do you just replace them with equivalent linux/bsd calls?
robot 14y ago
We can easily virtualize this and run it aside Android on Galaxy Nexus. But that would be meaningful only if it was possible to run iOS apps: " * Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away. " I wonder if it would be possible to port the binary ios stack.
- dspillett 14y ago
  "I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks" doesn't mean it won't happen, just that it isn't one of her personal targets. The beauty of an open release is that if others want it enough they can work on it. Let her concentrate on the bit she finds interesting (the core) and that will provide a nice stable platform for others to build the higher level stack on top of if they wish. Of course there are probably legal issues hidden in there somewhere, so care will need to be taken especially if importing binaries rather than building your own API compatible versions. While this won't have anything like the scale of Linux, I don't think the comparison some have made regarding the "shape" of the project is exaggerated. She seems to have the right attitude to be the "benevolent dictator" over something significantly wider than she could do alone.
qqyy 14y ago
Would it be possible to have a Linux kernel with all it's up-to-the-minute hardware support together with a BSD userland maybe via DarwinPorts?[1] For users who prefer a BSD userland to the one GNU offers, this would be magnificent. 1. e.g. Debian is doing the reverse: FreeBSD kernel and GNU userland.

326 points by mparlane 14y ago

tantalor 14y ago

The "teaser", http://crna.cc/test2.png http://crna.cc/test2.png

apaprocki 14y ago
Liking the ANSI. Maybe someone here has a few iCE/ACiD contacts laying around to make some serious art for it.
- christina_b 14y ago
  I'm glad you like it.

zmanji 14y ago

If this can run CoreFoundation, then can't anyone with the iOS SDK target this platform with no modifications to the SDK?

Xuzz 14y ago
Yep, that's how the binaries for it are currently built: with the iPhone SDK. However, higher-level stuff hasn't been developed (e.g. graphics), and the native iOS libraries would need emulation of additional lower-level services (like IOKit for hardware interaction) to run.

10dpd 14y ago

"You may ask, why am I doing this? The answer is: no f'ing idea :)" Love it.

shiven 14y ago
No graphics. No problem. Great, open (source) system to test iOS internals and hack at the lower level stuff. Also, nice way to test exploits, proof of concept backdoors, virii, trojans and the like without requiring major investment into the apple ecosystem. Maybe, even the beginnings of a third option besides Android and iOS ? Thanks!
- taligent 14y ago
  Maybe Meego would be a good fit ? But if she could get this working on Android it would be huge. I guarantee you could get a million off Kickstarter if you decided to be a little evil and stoke the fanboy flames a bit on Engadget/Reddit etc.
  - uhhyeahdude 14y ago
    Dude (or female, not sure), that is and evil an brilliant idea. Even if it never made it on Kickstarter, it would certainly start a movement.
- geon 14y ago
  How could you test exploits, when the underlying os core is linux, not darwin, and all higher level libraries are completely different implementations as well?
  - tryke 14y ago
    Not to mention the complete lack of Sandboxing and Mandatory Code Signing?
- flatline3 14y ago
  As cool as this project is, virtualizing OS X -- or emulating an ARM system for iOS -- is much more likely to be useful for testing iOS internals / lower-level bits without requiring Apple hardware. For example: http://www.iemu.org/index.php/Main_Page http://www.iemu.org/index.php/Main_Page
bretthopper 14y ago
Actual quote is "You may ask, why am I doing this? The answer is: no fucking idea :)" Not sure why you would censor that when the author didn't.

SomeCallMeTim 14y ago

It's a cute tech demo, but: * Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away. I think the submission title is deceptive -- by "fully binary compatible" the developer means that it runs executables compiled for iOS.

christina_b 14y ago
Aw.
- SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
  Sorry. Cool project, but the headline implied (to me) app compatibility. Your page was much more clear (he took the quote out of context); my beef was with the person who posted it on HN with a deceptive headline. If it had instead said "full binary compatibility with DARWIN", or iOS 5 Darwin, it would have been clear. And, by the way, if you hadn't said "go away" to people who wanted app compatibility, I might have been less annoyed by the deception. OF COURSE people want app compatibility. It's the core coolness of the project's potential! And maybe someday you'll get a crowd of people around you that can help achieve that. But telling them to go away isn't going to help.
  - nooop 14y ago
    If the headline meant app compability, it would probably have been written like: "It is fully app compatible with iPhone OS 5.0"
    - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
      Looking at the headline, my first thought wasn't that I'd be able to run arbitrary iOS apps, but that it was a project with that goal. To me it was a bait-and-switch, where not only was it not a goal, but Christina is somewhat rude to people who thought it might be a goal (sorry Christina). "I have this cool tech that could be used to run iOS apps -- and I have no intention of ever making it run iOS apps, because that's a crazy idea, now go away for even thinking about it!" System emulators (ahem, WINE, but tons of others exist) that do the level of emulation Christina scoffs at have been around for a long time, and it's very much not a crazy idea to start one. By yourself, maybe it is, but given the amount of hype this generated quickly, there would obviously be other people willing to jump on board.

sounds 14y ago

Is anyone else theorizing about Apple's response? whois crna.cc: WhoisGuard protected. WhoisGuard is in L.A; a subpoena and "Christina" could find the ICS logo on her site and a DMCA takedown notice for distributing "tools used to violate copyright." crna.cc says "Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No". But Apple is already suing Samsung for the Galaxy Tab, Nexus S, and Epic 4G [1] [2], so unless nobody is interested in taking this idea to completion, Apple could be an enormous target for cloners. To me, it's obvious: unlike hardware, where there are still effective barriers to competition, software like iOS is inherently vulnerable to cloning, copying, and being replaced. [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/04/bad-touchwiz-apple-sues-samsung-for-patent-violations/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/04/bad-touchwiz-apple-sues... [2] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/05/apple-samsung-walk-away-from-the-negotiating-table/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/05/apple-samsung-walk-away...

christina_b 14y ago
This does not violate anyone's copyrights.
- sounds 14y ago
  I don't have to take a position on that to theorize that Apple can use the DMCA to take it down, citing 17 U.S.C. Sec. 1201 (a). [1] [2] Nevertheless I think you're right, it doesn't violate anyone's copyrights. [1] http://chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi#QID91 http://chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi#QID91 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Distribution_of_Circumvention_Tools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Distribution...
  - anextio 14y ago
    Then why haven't they taken down GNUStep and Chameleon? Oh right, because APIs are not copyrightable or patentable and it's absolutely meaningless to attempt to assert ownership over such things. The reason why you're the only one "theorizing" about what Apple will do is because most other people here recognize how patents and copyrights work and why there is a dispute between Apple and Samsung.

christina_b 14y ago

By the way, the sources are up on http://crna.cc/ http://crna.cc/ now.

taligent 14y ago
Any thoughts about getting this up on Github ? Would definitely get you some contributors.
- mparlane 14y ago
  From IRC (don't shoot the messenger, please..): <_Christina_> no github, i dont like revision control
  - lucian1900 14y ago
    I hope she changes her mind. Revision control saved many people's asses throughout history.
  - hahainternet 14y ago
    There's opinionated, then there's reckless.
    - josephkern 14y ago
      Revision control does not need software per se. Keeping multiple directories and files works too (not as well though).
      - dexen 14y ago
        Which is what Git does: every commit actually is a directory/file tree and a small note a.k.a. `commit message'. You could re-create the effect by hand, by placing `.commit' file in root of the multiple directories you speak of. However, Git (and any other DVCS) does the bookkeeping and keeps you from missing that one small detail at 4AM. Also, it's much faster to git-commit than to copy 150MB of sources by hand; mostly because Git avoids work where sensible. Ditto for git-diff.

zvrba 14y ago

And this is announced just after the judge has decided APIs are not copyrightable!

ajasmin 14y ago

Does it use some of the open source Darwin code from Apple?

christina_b 14y ago
Yes, but the code is under APSL so I'm not violating any copyrights. I'm fully complying with the APSL license.

RandallBrown 14y ago

I'm a little confused as to what this actually is. It's a version of linux that can run apps compiled for the iPhone?

jurre 14y ago
Re: apps Will it run iPhone OS apps? No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away.
ajasmin 14y ago
From what I understand it is a version of Linux that can run binaries compiled for the iPhone on an ARM chip but doesn't provide any of the higher level Cocoa libraries (i.e. no GUI stuff)
kvnn 14y ago
Actually, so am I. Lets go through it together: 1) "Implementation of Darwin" [1] 2) "On top of the Linux kernel" [2] 3) "Binary compatible with iOS 5.0" [3] 4) "The final goal is probably recreating the iPhone OS 1.0 stack" [4] -------- [1] "Darwin forms the core set of components upon which Mac OS X and iOS are based" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) [2] "The main component of most computer operating systems" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) [3] "In computing, a computer that can run the same binary code intended to be run on another computer is said to be binary-compatible" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility [4] "Initial OS release". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#iOS_1.x:_initial_OS_release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#iOS_1.x:_in...

kvnn 14y ago

This is the sort of person that I want to be engaged with: * highly opinionated * driven by personal interest * not afraid to go down the worm hole and come up with little public recognition and enormous personal gain This is the sort of project that makes me grin: * highly engrossing project page * mysterious motivations * unknown implications * legally ambiguous I love this shit. Keep it up, Christina.

christina_b 14y ago
I love you.
- Cushman 14y ago
  HN needs more conversations like this. Edit: Ooh, controversy. I'm quite sincere about this-- love to chat with whoever disagrees.
- devin 14y ago
  Ha! Well played, Christina. Well played.
taligent 14y ago
Is it just me that reads this and is reminded of Linus/Linux ?
Camillo 14y ago
This is really weird. When there is a submission about some guy's project, do we evaluate his potential as a mate? Does that become the top comment? What in the world is going on here?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- coob 14y ago
  I think you're misinterpreting 'engaged with' there…

nitrogen 14y ago

I look forward to seeing Phoronix fan the OS war flames by benchmarking Linux running BSD binaries vs. BSD running Linux binaries. More importantly, what planet do you come from, and is it accepting immigrants?

bprater 14y ago

What is Magenta -- in plain english? And what does binary compatible with iOS 5 mean?

masklinn 14y ago
> What is Magenta -- in plain english? Not sure what could be clearer than: > Magenta is an implementation of Darwin/BSD on top of the Linux kernel. > And what does binary compatible with iOS 5 mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_code_compatibility That Magenta will run programs compiled for iOS5 unmodified (if they don't use APIs which haven't been reimplemented yet of course)
- shalmanese 14y ago
  That's not clear at all. This guy has basically built an OS from scratch that can run on iPhones and supports iPhone apps without having to recompile them. Currently, only the base layer has been built so graphics/sound etc do not work but the goal is to emulate the entire iPhone OS. It's based on the linux kernel and the Darwin OS which is the open source core of the Mac OS X.
  - johnbellone 14y ago
    "This guy has basically built an OS from scratch that can run on iPhones and supports iPhone apps without having to recompile them." No, that's completely wrong. Go read it, re-read it, and then do a Google search for binary-compatible.
  - ericmoritz 14y ago
    Think of it as WINE project for iOS. He's building the libraries that iOS code depends on just like WINE recreated all the Windows DLLs so that Windows programs could run on Linux/OSX
    - gcr 14y ago
      She. http://crna.cc/ http://crna.cc/

Rhino55 14y ago

Great, keep up the good work. And don't post to HN until you have something worth showing.

cs702 14y ago

I love it: hacking for the sake of hacking, just to have fun. Christina's announcement reminds me a little bit of Linus Torvalds's 'this won't amount to anything' post to comp.os.minix on August 25, 1991.[1] I'm by no means suggesting or implying that Magenta will be as successful as Linux or anything like that, just that the announcements posted by Christina and Linus strike me as very similar in tone and attitude :-) [1] https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc5a044b?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc...

shuri 14y ago

very cool

tomrod 14y ago

Cool. So what does this mean it can do? Run iPhone OS apps?

SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
No. I tried to post that running iPhone apps wasn't even a design goal, but got downvoted. [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4087395 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4087395

sciurus 14y ago

This makes me wonder how long until there is a project that tries to reimplement the ios libraries, similar to what GNUstep is doing for Cocoa. http://www.gnustep.org/ http://www.gnustep.org/

nglevin 14y ago
It's not quite what you describe, but Ivan Vučica is currently working on a GSoC project to implement a subset of UIKit with parts of Quartz and CoreAnimation in GNUstep. http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2012/ivucica/11001 http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2012/i... "This proposal covers implementing a flexible animation API compatible with a certain popular existing desktop and mobile platform, as well as adding APIs compatible with a popular mobile platform. This will allow extremely user-friendly interfaces, as well as allow development or porting of applications that use CoreAnimation or UIKit API on platforms that don't yet support it."

flatline3 14y ago

There are a number of past projects very similar to this one. The two I remember off-hand: - http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html -- NetBSD in-kernel COMPAT_MACH / COMPAT_DARWIN support. This got to the point of being able to run XDarwin, which is a pretty major step towards being able to run the WindowServer: http://hcpnet.free.fr/xdarwin.jpeg http://hcpnet.free.fr/xdarwin.jpeg - https://github.com/shinh/maloader https://github.com/shinh/maloader -- A user-space Mach-O binary loader. The only goal was to be able to run Apple's binary toolchain on Linux, which it is able to do. It's very possible to implement the necessary kernel APIs to run Mac / iOS Darwin binaries. Where you run into trouble is the massive software stack that sits on top of those OS APIs. Without $10M or more to spend on development, it's simply not feasible to produce full binary-compatible replacements for Apple's software frameworks. The best you can hope for is to copy over Apple's software from a real installation, and then run it atop your own kernel. I love hacks like this, so god speed to christina_b. This is awesome. To those of you telling the Christina to put her work on github to get contributors, I don't think that is particularly helpful advice. The barrier to entry on a project like this has nothing to do with the SCM being used.

kqa5 14y ago
From your first example: "This project is dead due to a lack of interest from users." Do they really mean "lack of interest from other developers"? They shouldn't be doing it for users, they should be doing it for themselves, and to their credit, I think that's often why they do what they do. They have more common sense than the usual. That's why their work is so good. (It's also because they have more of a cathedral-like structure, and not just with respect to the kernel.) Who are these "users" we need interest from? How do we measure interest? Among OS's NetBSD's user base (non-corporate) is very small. This developer chose the Linux kernel not to please users by making the "popular choice" or because it is necessarily the easiest to work with. As the blurb says, it's a matter of driver support. Yes, Godspeed.
- flatline3 14y ago
  In the case of the NetBSD project, users and developers were the same people, and there wasn't much interest. When looking for people with the necessary skills to contribute, you'll find that the majority qualified individuals are Mac OS X kernel/systems engineers, who already have Apple hardware, and don't have any particular need to support an alternative clone of their existing target platform. This was certainly the case with the NetBSD project. When it was contemporary, I kept tabs on it, but never bothered to contribute -- Mac OS X worked fine for me. Revisiting the problem space now, my development time would be better spent working on the open source alternatives (such as Android), rather than attempting to clone Apple's stack. It's just too big. Personally I work with Android on OMAP4 hardware.

kqa5 14y ago

An open source smartphone OS that - you can compile yourself easily - which has a real command line and - is not controlled by some company. This would be most welcome. Palm-sized "UNIX". A true opens source "UNIX phone". No company-controlled virtual machines or high level GUI frameworks. Lower complexity, less bloat, same communication functionality.

duaneb 14y ago

How do you deal with mach/whatever calls inside the darwin userland? Do you just replace them with equivalent linux/bsd calls?

robot 14y ago

We can easily virtualize this and run it aside Android on Galaxy Nexus. But that would be meaningful only if it was possible to run iOS apps: " * Will it run iPhone OS apps? * No, because I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks. Just think about how much work is required to have a 100% compatible implementation of UIKit or Celestial. HOWEVER, the CoreOS part should be 100% (or 99%) compatible. Just not the higher level OS. If you're just interested in this because it will "run iOS apps" please go away. " I wonder if it would be possible to port the binary ios stack.

dspillett 14y ago
"I'm not aiming to have compatible high level frameworks" doesn't mean it won't happen, just that it isn't one of her personal targets. The beauty of an open release is that if others want it enough they can work on it. Let her concentrate on the bit she finds interesting (the core) and that will provide a nice stable platform for others to build the higher level stack on top of if they wish. Of course there are probably legal issues hidden in there somewhere, so care will need to be taken especially if importing binaries rather than building your own API compatible versions. While this won't have anything like the scale of Linux, I don't think the comparison some have made regarding the "shape" of the project is exaggerated. She seems to have the right attitude to be the "benevolent dictator" over something significantly wider than she could do alone.

qqyy 14y ago

Would it be possible to have a Linux kernel with all it's up-to-the-minute hardware support together with a BSD userland maybe via DarwinPorts?[1] For users who prefer a BSD userland to the one GNU offers, this would be magnificent. 1. e.g. Debian is doing the reverse: FreeBSD kernel and GNU userland.