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A bunch of people are trying to explain philosophy here, but you have hit the nail on the head. Anarchy very quickly turns into warlords. Even when described ph

A bunch of people are trying to explain philosophy here, but you have hit the nail on the head. Anarchy very quickly turns into warlords. Even when described philosophically in other comments all I can see is feudal and tribal structures with never-ending conflicts (or the republican equivalent, like the Italian city-states in the 1400-1500s).

kyletns 2y ago
I might suggest reading the text in question. Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" will give a much more three dimensional view of "anarchism" than what we tend imagine from first principles. Even just the first few chapters are well worth the read: https://files.libcom.org/files/Homage%20to%20Catalonia%20-%20George%20Orwell.pdf https://files.libcom.org/files/Homage%20to%20Catalonia%20-%2...
- arrosenberg 2y ago
  I think I get it, it's radical egalitarianism. It just turns out that hierarchical decision making works better for running complex organizations (e.g. an army), so anarchism (i.e. a vacuum of centralized power) nearly always leads to a warlord taking power. The US basically got lucky that Washington didn't want it and set a republican precedent for other colonial independence movements.
  - AndyNemmity 2y ago
    There is no evidence that hierarchical decision making works better for complex organizations. It's possibly true, but there's no evidence it is. I guess the question also depends on what is "better". Certainly it's better for those with authority, but it's very difficult to compare that with another structure.
    - arrosenberg 2y ago
      > It's possibly true, but there's no evidence it is. I mean, which leftist revolutions lead to a radically egalitarian society instead of an authoritarian? If there is one, I'd love to read about it. "Better" as in, more likely to prevail in real terms. You can obviously go too far with that and paralyze yourself within a hierarchy, but some is better than none.
      - AndyNemmity 2y ago
        >I mean, which leftist revolutions lead to a radically egalitarian society The one referenced in the article. Although it was brief before it was crushed. Would have been interesting to see how it developed. Since it didn't, we have no evidence it wouldn't have. While it was active, it was a marvel of human effort.
        arrosenberg 2y ago
        > Although it was brief before it was crushed. Thus my point...
asdff 2y ago
I almost feel like warlording is learned behavior like how a dog doesn't know to pee with the leg lifted until it sees other dogs doing it. Consider doing something like going to a park. Everyone in that park is on equal plane in terms of using the resources. No one is forming gangs to tax usage of the swing set, people are generally polite with others. However, if you come to a park and the warlording is already present maybe you have no choice but to pay a tax to use the swings or face a club to the head.
- arrosenberg 2y ago
  In poor neighborhoods with a weak state presence gangs do tend to regulate the usage of the commons. In wealthier neighborhood, social norms and police presence prevent that. Self-regulation is only possible in small communities via social norms, but then you have conflicts if your neighbors instead. The obvious solution in big societies is enough socialism for everyone to incentivize generally polite society.
  - asdff 2y ago
    I have lived in cities big and small by orders of magnitude difference, and the park experience is the same. I'm sure gangs do what you describe in certain areas. But still I think what I am trying to get at is for the vast majority of people and things, we tend to operate pretty evenly. The rich and poor go to the beach and you can scarcely tell who is who when they are in polyester shorts sharing the same resources as everyone else. Are police maintaining this? Perhaps, but there are also beaches that don't have regular policing or active lifeguarding and they look generally the same in this regard as beaches that do. Maybe theres the threat of punishment if there would be something done but realistically the police don't work like they do in movies and TV and won't proactively respond before you get a black eye. If people worked out how to be a bad person at a beach thats learned behavior. They might study the law. realize there are loopholes to exploit. Maybe realize they could argue the beach is private property and not public and kick everyone out. People do this, yes, but part of me imagines that they only attempt to do this because they know others have done similar things and are supported by lawyers and advisors who are finding ways to do this thing. Its not a natural response. Natural is probably a child working with other children they don't even know on a sand castle.

kyletns 2y ago

I might suggest reading the text in question. Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" will give a much more three dimensional view of "anarchism" than what we tend imagine from first principles. Even just the first few chapters are well worth the read: https://files.libcom.org/files/Homage%20to%20Catalonia%20-%20George%20Orwell.pdf https://files.libcom.org/files/Homage%20to%20Catalonia%20-%2...

arrosenberg 2y ago
I think I get it, it's radical egalitarianism. It just turns out that hierarchical decision making works better for running complex organizations (e.g. an army), so anarchism (i.e. a vacuum of centralized power) nearly always leads to a warlord taking power. The US basically got lucky that Washington didn't want it and set a republican precedent for other colonial independence movements.
- AndyNemmity 2y ago
  There is no evidence that hierarchical decision making works better for complex organizations. It's possibly true, but there's no evidence it is. I guess the question also depends on what is "better". Certainly it's better for those with authority, but it's very difficult to compare that with another structure.
  - arrosenberg 2y ago
    > It's possibly true, but there's no evidence it is. I mean, which leftist revolutions lead to a radically egalitarian society instead of an authoritarian? If there is one, I'd love to read about it. "Better" as in, more likely to prevail in real terms. You can obviously go too far with that and paralyze yourself within a hierarchy, but some is better than none.
    - AndyNemmity 2y ago
      >I mean, which leftist revolutions lead to a radically egalitarian society The one referenced in the article. Although it was brief before it was crushed. Would have been interesting to see how it developed. Since it didn't, we have no evidence it wouldn't have. While it was active, it was a marvel of human effort.
      - arrosenberg 2y ago
        > Although it was brief before it was crushed. Thus my point...

asdff 2y ago

I almost feel like warlording is learned behavior like how a dog doesn't know to pee with the leg lifted until it sees other dogs doing it. Consider doing something like going to a park. Everyone in that park is on equal plane in terms of using the resources. No one is forming gangs to tax usage of the swing set, people are generally polite with others. However, if you come to a park and the warlording is already present maybe you have no choice but to pay a tax to use the swings or face a club to the head.

arrosenberg 2y ago
In poor neighborhoods with a weak state presence gangs do tend to regulate the usage of the commons. In wealthier neighborhood, social norms and police presence prevent that. Self-regulation is only possible in small communities via social norms, but then you have conflicts if your neighbors instead. The obvious solution in big societies is enough socialism for everyone to incentivize generally polite society.
- asdff 2y ago
  I have lived in cities big and small by orders of magnitude difference, and the park experience is the same. I'm sure gangs do what you describe in certain areas. But still I think what I am trying to get at is for the vast majority of people and things, we tend to operate pretty evenly. The rich and poor go to the beach and you can scarcely tell who is who when they are in polyester shorts sharing the same resources as everyone else. Are police maintaining this? Perhaps, but there are also beaches that don't have regular policing or active lifeguarding and they look generally the same in this regard as beaches that do. Maybe theres the threat of punishment if there would be something done but realistically the police don't work like they do in movies and TV and won't proactively respond before you get a black eye. If people worked out how to be a bad person at a beach thats learned behavior. They might study the law. realize there are loopholes to exploit. Maybe realize they could argue the beach is private property and not public and kick everyone out. People do this, yes, but part of me imagines that they only attempt to do this because they know others have done similar things and are supported by lawyers and advisors who are finding ways to do this thing. Its not a natural response. Natural is probably a child working with other children they don't even know on a sand castle.