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Tell me you live in California without telling me you live in California. A non-exhaustive list of EV limitations that have not been addressed: * The charging

Tell me you live in California without telling me you live in California. A non-exhaustive list of EV limitations that have not been addressed: * The charging network is still splintered between a couple different standards, and even taken as a totality which isn't reflective of how it functions to a particular user, it's still woefully inadequate next to gas stations * They still get obliterated by cold weather. Having to run electrical heaters both for the cabin/passengers and for the energy cells absolutely murders range, which is already the biggest issue with them. * You throw out "lithium batteries without cobalt" as though lithium itself isn't a major part that requires sourcing and that we have a finite supply of, a ton of which is still being utterly wasted on single-use products because the market is absolutely stupid in certain key ways that libertarians like to ignore. * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless.

altruios 2y ago
> * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. for level 2 charging... level 3 is ~30 minutes for a F-150. level 3 coverage is lower and not available in the house. If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. Yep, Lots of issues with EV's, still better than ICE in a growing number of situations as the tech improves.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  Admittedly I thought it was lower than that but Google's stupid AI kept telling me 10 hours. However even 30 minutes is a problem. I'm guessing that's the 15% to 80% charge time. That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station, but you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? AND, that also assumes you can have the electrical backbone in place to let, what, 24 vehicles pull their maximum rapid-charge amount of electricity? Which is a fuck-shit-ass-load of electricity to pull.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    > you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? Highway safety engineers are cheering - they want people to stop more often and take longer breaks for safety reasons. People can and often do stop only when the fuel tank is low, and they do all their bathroom time while the car is filling - this is very unsafe and people die from it. If the cars forced a longer stop those people would get some exercise, maybe take a nap - all things that increase safety. You are correct that the people will hate it.
  - altruios 2y ago
    Yes. Everything you said is true. The places I see level 3 chargers the most is Malls or shopping centers, where 30 minutes to grab lunch or do some shopping can be integrated with getting a charge. Battery tech is improving (some fancy stuff removing some components of li-ion batteries can improving the charging speed greatly: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388248118302601 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138824811...) If charging time can be put down to a couple of minutes, the number of chargers go down... powering them is the last question... small scale (used fuel) nuclear reactors seem like a really promising option for fast power scaling. they can be built super fast (about 3 years - compared to the old-school options of 8-10 years). https://www.nuscalepower.com/-/media/nuscale/pdf/publications/nuscale-smr-technology-an-ideal-solution-for-coal-plant-replacement.pdf https://www.nuscalepower.com/-/media/nuscale/pdf/publication... Yep. It's a lot of work: money to do it all is up for grabs. Opportunity for a lot of people is knocking.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    > That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station You can’t directly compare these, there are lots of factors to take into account. Lots of people will charge at home. I used a public charger yesterday for this first time in 6 months yesterday. It took 29 minutes. My time refuelling my diesel at 5 minutes a week would have been 2 hours. So for me it was a quarter of the usual time. Someone that can’t charge at home would be more.
- bluGill 2y ago
  > If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. The achievable is the problem. Most people are expect to level 2 charge at home most of the time. Level 2 charging is better for the battery so you will want to do that when not on road trips. Plus level 2 at home is likely to be cheaper - it can use cheaper off peak rates (though few have the ability to take advantage of this), and since there is no "gas station" to support there is less overhead and so you are going to pay less per watt. Thus there is every reason to expect there is much less need for "gas stations" to charge at. On all major freeways I expect to see level 3 chargers about as often as you see gas stations and with more chargers than pumps (since you use them longer). However if you get off those main routes chargers will likely be much harder to find - most people using the current gas pumps are locals - and they will be filling at home.
btbuilder 2y ago
Pump filling times should be compared with DC-fast charging times as L2 is normally what you do at home when you don’t care too much about how long it takes. F150 will DC fast charge 15% -> 80% in “around 32 minutes”. Level 2 takes 10 hours as you point out.
delecti 2y ago
Charge at home. Not everyone can, but a lot of people can. You aren't driving 24/7. Here's an example: Wyoming seems to have the highest average miles/year at around 25k, and charging overnight, even just at 120V, would be nearly enough to cover that. Increase that to a 240V, still totally feasible at home, and you more than double your typical charge in miles/overnight. Not everyone would benefit from an EV, but there's so much ridiculous FUD around how infeasible they are. I only get about 200 miles per charge on mine, but even still I only need to plug in once or twice a week at 120V. The FUD is BS, EVs are so simple. I'm optimistic about my future never again including a trip to the gas station. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-dri...
gruturo 2y ago
> * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. Please don't deliberately ignore data if you want to be taken seriously. A L3 charger can take the F150 to 80% in under 30 minutes. That time is expected to drop to <20 minutes as 350kW (and higher) chargers come online, but it will be vehicle dependent, maybe the F150 in particular won't benefit from it. My Tesla M3 for example is limited to 170kW so won't benefit from chargers faster than that.
eldaisfish 2y ago
A lot of what you present is true but there are solutions. In my opinion, a key problem with the EV transition is that it aims for the full transition, right at the start. We don't need that. What we need is regulation that mandates every new vehicle include a hybrid drivetrain. This gets around most of the issues above while allowing time for the industry to develop, supply chains to grow and for the electric grid to catch up to demand. The other option is plug-in hybrids like the new Prius. 50-60 km of electric range covers the vast majority of drives. In Canada, the median commute is around 10 km. The Prius eliminates emissions for that commute entirely. The best part is that you can charge at home and not be forced to rely on the EV charging network.
fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
> The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes I drove my Tesla Model 3 from Los Angeles to Houston and I think it may have taken an extra hour or two vs. my normal time for that route. Long distance driving already has a lot of down time when you’re stopping for lunch, dinner and other things and so spending half an hour to an hour charging at a supercharger just isn’t a big deal (if you’re doing full charges) However, if time is important, driving until the battery hits 20% and doing five or ten minute charges is more efficient: the first 50% of the battery charges significantly faster than the second 50%, so it saves time to do more short stops vs. one long stop
thebruce87m 2y ago
This is FUD bingo. Ten hours actually made me laugh out loud, as did the “finite supply” of lithium, which can be recycled (unlike the limitless(?) oil). I really wish people who know nothing about EVs would stop opening their mouth and letting their belly rumble.
germinalphrase 2y ago
FWIW: we have had ~100 years of infrastructure development around fuel delivery to enable that easy access. Electric chargers have the inherent advantage that they can be placed anywhere an electrical line can be run (which is almost anywhere) while fuel stations require significantly larger and more costly infrastructure (e.g. underground holding tanks, etc). You are correct today, but charging infrastructure will be a solved problem before too long.

altruios 2y ago

> * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. for level 2 charging... level 3 is ~30 minutes for a F-150. level 3 coverage is lower and not available in the house. If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. Yep, Lots of issues with EV's, still better than ICE in a growing number of situations as the tech improves.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Admittedly I thought it was lower than that but Google's stupid AI kept telling me 10 hours. However even 30 minutes is a problem. I'm guessing that's the 15% to 80% charge time. That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station, but you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? AND, that also assumes you can have the electrical backbone in place to let, what, 24 vehicles pull their maximum rapid-charge amount of electricity? Which is a fuck-shit-ass-load of electricity to pull.
- bluGill 2y ago
  > you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? Highway safety engineers are cheering - they want people to stop more often and take longer breaks for safety reasons. People can and often do stop only when the fuel tank is low, and they do all their bathroom time while the car is filling - this is very unsafe and people die from it. If the cars forced a longer stop those people would get some exercise, maybe take a nap - all things that increase safety. You are correct that the people will hate it.
- altruios 2y ago
  Yes. Everything you said is true. The places I see level 3 chargers the most is Malls or shopping centers, where 30 minutes to grab lunch or do some shopping can be integrated with getting a charge. Battery tech is improving (some fancy stuff removing some components of li-ion batteries can improving the charging speed greatly: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388248118302601 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138824811...) If charging time can be put down to a couple of minutes, the number of chargers go down... powering them is the last question... small scale (used fuel) nuclear reactors seem like a really promising option for fast power scaling. they can be built super fast (about 3 years - compared to the old-school options of 8-10 years). https://www.nuscalepower.com/-/media/nuscale/pdf/publications/nuscale-smr-technology-an-ideal-solution-for-coal-plant-replacement.pdf https://www.nuscalepower.com/-/media/nuscale/pdf/publication... Yep. It's a lot of work: money to do it all is up for grabs. Opportunity for a lot of people is knocking.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station You can’t directly compare these, there are lots of factors to take into account. Lots of people will charge at home. I used a public charger yesterday for this first time in 6 months yesterday. It took 29 minutes. My time refuelling my diesel at 5 minutes a week would have been 2 hours. So for me it was a quarter of the usual time. Someone that can’t charge at home would be more.
bluGill 2y ago
> If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. The achievable is the problem. Most people are expect to level 2 charge at home most of the time. Level 2 charging is better for the battery so you will want to do that when not on road trips. Plus level 2 at home is likely to be cheaper - it can use cheaper off peak rates (though few have the ability to take advantage of this), and since there is no "gas station" to support there is less overhead and so you are going to pay less per watt. Thus there is every reason to expect there is much less need for "gas stations" to charge at. On all major freeways I expect to see level 3 chargers about as often as you see gas stations and with more chargers than pumps (since you use them longer). However if you get off those main routes chargers will likely be much harder to find - most people using the current gas pumps are locals - and they will be filling at home.

btbuilder 2y ago

Pump filling times should be compared with DC-fast charging times as L2 is normally what you do at home when you don’t care too much about how long it takes. F150 will DC fast charge 15% -> 80% in “around 32 minutes”. Level 2 takes 10 hours as you point out.

delecti 2y ago

Charge at home. Not everyone can, but a lot of people can. You aren't driving 24/7. Here's an example: Wyoming seems to have the highest average miles/year at around 25k, and charging overnight, even just at 120V, would be nearly enough to cover that. Increase that to a 240V, still totally feasible at home, and you more than double your typical charge in miles/overnight. Not everyone would benefit from an EV, but there's so much ridiculous FUD around how infeasible they are. I only get about 200 miles per charge on mine, but even still I only need to plug in once or twice a week at 120V. The FUD is BS, EVs are so simple. I'm optimistic about my future never again including a trip to the gas station. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-dri...

gruturo 2y ago

> * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. Please don't deliberately ignore data if you want to be taken seriously. A L3 charger can take the F150 to 80% in under 30 minutes. That time is expected to drop to <20 minutes as 350kW (and higher) chargers come online, but it will be vehicle dependent, maybe the F150 in particular won't benefit from it. My Tesla M3 for example is limited to 170kW so won't benefit from chargers faster than that.

eldaisfish 2y ago

A lot of what you present is true but there are solutions. In my opinion, a key problem with the EV transition is that it aims for the full transition, right at the start. We don't need that. What we need is regulation that mandates every new vehicle include a hybrid drivetrain. This gets around most of the issues above while allowing time for the industry to develop, supply chains to grow and for the electric grid to catch up to demand. The other option is plug-in hybrids like the new Prius. 50-60 km of electric range covers the vast majority of drives. In Canada, the median commute is around 10 km. The Prius eliminates emissions for that commute entirely. The best part is that you can charge at home and not be forced to rely on the EV charging network.

fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago

> The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes I drove my Tesla Model 3 from Los Angeles to Houston and I think it may have taken an extra hour or two vs. my normal time for that route. Long distance driving already has a lot of down time when you’re stopping for lunch, dinner and other things and so spending half an hour to an hour charging at a supercharger just isn’t a big deal (if you’re doing full charges) However, if time is important, driving until the battery hits 20% and doing five or ten minute charges is more efficient: the first 50% of the battery charges significantly faster than the second 50%, so it saves time to do more short stops vs. one long stop

thebruce87m 2y ago

This is FUD bingo. Ten hours actually made me laugh out loud, as did the “finite supply” of lithium, which can be recycled (unlike the limitless(?) oil). I really wish people who know nothing about EVs would stop opening their mouth and letting their belly rumble.

germinalphrase 2y ago

FWIW: we have had ~100 years of infrastructure development around fuel delivery to enable that easy access. Electric chargers have the inherent advantage that they can be placed anywhere an electrical line can be run (which is almost anywhere) while fuel stations require significantly larger and more costly infrastructure (e.g. underground holding tanks, etc). You are correct today, but charging infrastructure will be a solved problem before too long.