4 ms·

So, first lithium batteries without cobalt, and now motors without rare-earth metals. The end of combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells is coming to an end

So, first lithium batteries without cobalt, and now motors without rare-earth metals. The end of combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells is coming to an end, no matter what the fossil fuel lobby and the politicians they bought off try to propagandize.

hulitu 2y ago
Well, the bier without alcohol did not made people change from the one with. /s
- thenipper 2y ago
  Anecdotally I'd say it actually has. Myself and a bunch of friends have moved to non-alcoholic craft beers.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    If you like IPAs or light beer, NA beer is having a renaissance. Dark beer, not so much.
    - thenipper 2y ago
      I like the dark beer from Athletic. The 'All Out'. It's pretty tasty. N/A Guinness on the other hand is disgusting.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Rinzler89 2y ago
>now motors without rare-earth metals NOW?! Electric motors without rare earth magnets have exited since the very beginning of electric motors, long before those with rare earth magnets became popular due to their better efficiency. They're only now becoming unpopular due to the trade war with China where most of the mining was happening, not because they're somehow worse.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
To a large extent the politicians are doing what voters want
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Tell me you live in California without telling me you live in California. A non-exhaustive list of EV limitations that have not been addressed: * The charging network is still splintered between a couple different standards, and even taken as a totality which isn't reflective of how it functions to a particular user, it's still woefully inadequate next to gas stations * They still get obliterated by cold weather. Having to run electrical heaters both for the cabin/passengers and for the energy cells absolutely murders range, which is already the biggest issue with them. * You throw out "lithium batteries without cobalt" as though lithium itself isn't a major part that requires sourcing and that we have a finite supply of, a ton of which is still being utterly wasted on single-use products because the market is absolutely stupid in certain key ways that libertarians like to ignore. * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
- altruios 2y ago
  > * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. for level 2 charging... level 3 is ~30 minutes for a F-150. level 3 coverage is lower and not available in the house. If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. Yep, Lots of issues with EV's, still better than ICE in a growing number of situations as the tech improves.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    Admittedly I thought it was lower than that but Google's stupid AI kept telling me 10 hours. However even 30 minutes is a problem. I'm guessing that's the 15% to 80% charge time. That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station, but you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? AND, that also assumes you can have the electrical backbone in place to let, what, 24 vehicles pull their maximum rapid-charge amount of electricity? Which is a fuck-shit-ass-load of electricity to pull.
altruios 2y ago
Fossil fuel and hydrogen sadly will not end (just be severely reduced - which is good)... Semi-trucks are not good candidates for EV tech (yet)... high altitudes (or changing altitudes greatly during a trip) or cold weather affect battery capacity. Mountain people that need to go down to the city below them would not have a good experience with EVs. For urban city dwelling people the biggest concern is being able to charge at home (so living in an apartment with street parking or no car spot makes having an EV difficult)... But more and more infrastructure is rolling out - so I expect most cars in cities to be EV's shortly... It's sunsetting, the fossil fuel industry, but it won't go away completely until the needs of travel are covered completely by EV tech... Which is something we should be striving towards by recognizing (and eliminating/reducing) where EV's are not appropriate.
- cuu508 2y ago
  Why are high or changing altitudes problematic for EVs?
  - altruios 2y ago
    going up a hill requires more energy and puts a higher strain on the battery as it pulls more power (if that's a consistent part of your commute - then the battery health lowers faster).
    - ianburrell 2y ago
      Battery draw doesn't reduce lithium battery life. Starting power, especially in Tesla going fast, is way higher than hauling something up hill. Exceeding the max power would hurt the battery, but the batteries are protected. But going up hill wouldn't come close to that. The main factor with lithium battery lifetime is charging cycles. Going up hill would drain the battery faster lead to be more charging, but it would be a small effect.
      - snovv_crash 2y ago
        The other factor is heat. A quick acceleration doesn't have time to heat the batteries, but a long climb does.
_ea1k 2y ago
It is funny that this kind of comment will draw downvotes, even here! Obviously combustion fuels will not 100% go away(1), but the era of their dominance is quickly reaching its logical end. (1) Kind of an unrelated note, but I think the most interesting aspect of this will be an era when fuel is still really common, but also commonly pulled by electric semis. It is closer than many think.
- bluGill 2y ago
  > fuel is still really common, but also commonly pulled by electric semis. It is closer than many think. Wouldn't surprise me - your local gas station buys fuel from the closest refinery as shipping costs mean fuel from a different refinery is more expensive. While different stations can ask for different additives, it is rare that there is a second refinery that is close enough to be a reasonable option - and often the second refinery doesn't make the correct mixture for emissions in your state so they can't use it anyway. The important take away is gas is shipping shorter distances and so an electric semi is reasonable (you need to recharge it, but there are options). This is different from cross country shipping where they want to use the same semi and can't wait for refueling.
  - _ea1k 2y ago
    Yeah, and from what I've heard, there is a bit of a hub and spoke model involved too. Lots of fuel gets delivered to large tanks at centralized, relatively nearby fuel terminals with short distance delivery to the stations. This last mile delivery is also the most inefficient, as it involves heavy diesel trucks in urban traffic situations that are almost a worst case for them. It seems like almost the perfect case for electric trucks. At least I haven't seen a compelling reason to believe otherwise yet.
quickthrowman 2y ago
> now motors without rare-earth metals. Electric motors have used electromagnets as the stator since they were invented, just FYI. I know there are motors with permanent magnets in them now, but the vast majority of motors don’t have rare earth metals in them.
- Electric_Genie 2y ago
  If you read the article you'll probably notice that it explicitly states that it is about motors for electric vehicles. These do actually have rare earth metals in them.

hulitu 2y ago

Well, the bier without alcohol did not made people change from the one with. /s

thenipper 2y ago
Anecdotally I'd say it actually has. Myself and a bunch of friends have moved to non-alcoholic craft beers.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  If you like IPAs or light beer, NA beer is having a renaissance. Dark beer, not so much.
  - thenipper 2y ago
    I like the dark beer from Athletic. The 'All Out'. It's pretty tasty. N/A Guinness on the other hand is disgusting.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

Rinzler89 2y ago

>now motors without rare-earth metals NOW?! Electric motors without rare earth magnets have exited since the very beginning of electric motors, long before those with rare earth magnets became popular due to their better efficiency. They're only now becoming unpopular due to the trade war with China where most of the mining was happening, not because they're somehow worse.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

To a large extent the politicians are doing what voters want

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

Tell me you live in California without telling me you live in California. A non-exhaustive list of EV limitations that have not been addressed: * The charging network is still splintered between a couple different standards, and even taken as a totality which isn't reflective of how it functions to a particular user, it's still woefully inadequate next to gas stations * They still get obliterated by cold weather. Having to run electrical heaters both for the cabin/passengers and for the energy cells absolutely murders range, which is already the biggest issue with them. * You throw out "lithium batteries without cobalt" as though lithium itself isn't a major part that requires sourcing and that we have a finite supply of, a ton of which is still being utterly wasted on single-use products because the market is absolutely stupid in certain key ways that libertarians like to ignore. * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless.

altruios 2y ago
> * The time required to charge an EV is just not acceptable for long-distance driving. It's just not. I can fill my 30 gallon V8 truck with gas in 5 minutes. The F-150 lightning takes TEN HOURS to charge. That's just not going to work. And if you're towing something a good distance? Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. for level 2 charging... level 3 is ~30 minutes for a F-150. level 3 coverage is lower and not available in the house. If every gas station also had a level 3 charger - on a universal standard... I think that's the goal of EV infrastructure (to get to that scale), if that's actually achievable is another matter. Yep, Lots of issues with EV's, still better than ICE in a growing number of situations as the tech improves.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  Admittedly I thought it was lower than that but Google's stupid AI kept telling me 10 hours. However even 30 minutes is a problem. I'm guessing that's the 15% to 80% charge time. That's still a SIXTH of the throughput of a standard gas station, so to achieve the same rate of refueling (and I dunno about you, but highway-side gas stations are always pretty busy) you would not only need six times the fueling spaces available as a gas station, but you would also need like... something for those six-times-as-many vehicles worth of people to do for half an hour. People already get impatient standing next to a fuel pump for the little bit of time that takes, you expect them to sit there for the average length of a television block? AND, that also assumes you can have the electrical backbone in place to let, what, 24 vehicles pull their maximum rapid-charge amount of electricity? Which is a fuck-shit-ass-load of electricity to pull.

altruios 2y ago

Fossil fuel and hydrogen sadly will not end (just be severely reduced - which is good)... Semi-trucks are not good candidates for EV tech (yet)... high altitudes (or changing altitudes greatly during a trip) or cold weather affect battery capacity. Mountain people that need to go down to the city below them would not have a good experience with EVs. For urban city dwelling people the biggest concern is being able to charge at home (so living in an apartment with street parking or no car spot makes having an EV difficult)... But more and more infrastructure is rolling out - so I expect most cars in cities to be EV's shortly... It's sunsetting, the fossil fuel industry, but it won't go away completely until the needs of travel are covered completely by EV tech... Which is something we should be striving towards by recognizing (and eliminating/reducing) where EV's are not appropriate.

cuu508 2y ago
Why are high or changing altitudes problematic for EVs?
- altruios 2y ago
  going up a hill requires more energy and puts a higher strain on the battery as it pulls more power (if that's a consistent part of your commute - then the battery health lowers faster).
  - ianburrell 2y ago
    Battery draw doesn't reduce lithium battery life. Starting power, especially in Tesla going fast, is way higher than hauling something up hill. Exceeding the max power would hurt the battery, but the batteries are protected. But going up hill wouldn't come close to that. The main factor with lithium battery lifetime is charging cycles. Going up hill would drain the battery faster lead to be more charging, but it would be a small effect.
    - snovv_crash 2y ago
      The other factor is heat. A quick acceleration doesn't have time to heat the batteries, but a long climb does.

_ea1k 2y ago

It is funny that this kind of comment will draw downvotes, even here! Obviously combustion fuels will not 100% go away(1), but the era of their dominance is quickly reaching its logical end. (1) Kind of an unrelated note, but I think the most interesting aspect of this will be an era when fuel is still really common, but also commonly pulled by electric semis. It is closer than many think.

bluGill 2y ago
> fuel is still really common, but also commonly pulled by electric semis. It is closer than many think. Wouldn't surprise me - your local gas station buys fuel from the closest refinery as shipping costs mean fuel from a different refinery is more expensive. While different stations can ask for different additives, it is rare that there is a second refinery that is close enough to be a reasonable option - and often the second refinery doesn't make the correct mixture for emissions in your state so they can't use it anyway. The important take away is gas is shipping shorter distances and so an electric semi is reasonable (you need to recharge it, but there are options). This is different from cross country shipping where they want to use the same semi and can't wait for refueling.
- _ea1k 2y ago
  Yeah, and from what I've heard, there is a bit of a hub and spoke model involved too. Lots of fuel gets delivered to large tanks at centralized, relatively nearby fuel terminals with short distance delivery to the stations. This last mile delivery is also the most inefficient, as it involves heavy diesel trucks in urban traffic situations that are almost a worst case for them. It seems like almost the perfect case for electric trucks. At least I haven't seen a compelling reason to believe otherwise yet.

quickthrowman 2y ago

> now motors without rare-earth metals. Electric motors have used electromagnets as the stator since they were invented, just FYI. I know there are motors with permanent magnets in them now, but the vast majority of motors don’t have rare earth metals in them.

Electric_Genie 2y ago
If you read the article you'll probably notice that it explicitly states that it is about motors for electric vehicles. These do actually have rare earth metals in them.