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Of course interactions like this are childish and unproductive. However, I feel that these are symptoms of being ignored. When people feel that the VS side has

by pbz 14y ago

Of course interactions like this are childish and unproductive. However, I feel that these are symptoms of being ignored. When people feel that the VS side has their fingers in their ears, one needs to yell louder to be heard. Claiming to paying attention to feedback when clearly not doing so is also quite frustrating. A counter-example is how ScottGu handles situations like this -- or used to, nowadays he doesn't seem to have that much free time. When one posts about a problem on his blog he gets personally involved and assigns somebody to get it fixed. On the other side, one thousand people ask for the same thing and they're being ignored. Do you see my point?

ryanmolden 14y ago
>When people feel that the VS side has their fingers in their ears, one needs to yell louder to be heard. The problem is the people they are 'yelling louder' at are not the people making the decisions, they are simply the ones that have to/volunteer to face the mob. I try and be civil in my feedback for products I use even if I am pissed off because I know there is a human being at the other end and they are more than likely operating under similar constraints/deadlines/rules as everyone else in the world. Sometimes I disagree with their decisions, sometimes violently, but I try to approach the conversation from the mindset that they aren't simply doing it to annoy me, because they aren't. >Claiming to paying attention to feedback when clearly not doing so is also quite frustrating. Not sure how we could be considered to be ignoring people. Have you seen this announcement? Have you seen the massive UX changes due to Beta feedback? The only thing I can think of is the ALL CAPS issue, but that actually came in RC itself, and as someone else pointed out in the GP of this thread, that is also announced as being something that users will be able to tweak. >A counter-example is how ScottGu handles situations like this -- or used to, nowadays he doesn't seem to have that much free time. ScottGu is a VP now, he likely doesn't involve himself personally in many issues like that anymore as it doesn't scale and his time is more valuably spent in other pursuits. >On the other side, one thousand people ask for the same thing and they're being ignored. Do you see my point? I would if people were actually being ignored, I don't see anything in any recent announcement that would indicate that. Care to point out an issue with lots of feedback that is being ignored? And to be clear I don't consider "ignored" == "not doing what I want them to". Feedback can be given, even at large volume, and not result in a change of course. If the people making the decisions feel, even in the light of the feedback, that their course is correct that is their decision to make. Ignoring would be simply not even addressing the feedback at all and just blindly going about your planned course as if the feedback didn't exist. If I think to the major feedback points I recall they were Feedback: Don't like only being able to make Metro apps with Express. Conclusion: See the post this thread is located in. Feedback: Hate (dislike strongly) the UX in Beta. Conclusion: See the RC release. Feedback: Hate the ALL CAPS menu in RC. Conclusion: See blog post where it was said officially that there will be a way to tweak this (not sure what that way will be, but it will be present). Feedback: Hate that I can't build things in C++ that target XP using 2012. Conclusion: Still sad panda (I have no hand in that matter though so I can't speak with any intelligence on it).
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  >Feedback: Hate that I can't build things in C++ that target XP using 2012. lol. I apparently need to come give the VS team a brief on the VS team decisions. They've reacted to that crticism as well and are going to release an Express SKU with Desktop support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visual-studio-express-2012-for-windows-desktop.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visu...
  - ryanmolden 14y ago
    No, that release targets 'all OS versions that 2012 supports'. XP is not in that list. And in fact that link is just the link that the Ars link I posted to points to (whew). The problem with XP is that the CRT in 2012 is not supported on XP, thus any programs you built on it that depend on said CRT would not run on XP. http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/690617 http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/6...
- pbz 14y ago
  Again, I'm not saying that being rude or inconsiderate is ever justified. However, when trying to look at a response from a psychological point of view, you kind of have to throw out notions about what is right and wrong as these tend to taint the data. The fact that people felt like they had to keep commenting and commenting saying the same thing over and over should tell us something. When the original beta was introduced it was not a "hey guys, what do you think of the new UI" type of announcement. It was more of a "this is the new UI, it adheres to the latest and greatest design trends, is better, prettier, more 'energetic'; you will love it!" People felt patronized so they gave their feedback in droves. This later set the tone that the only way they're going to listen is if we bury them in feedback. Of course this is unfortunate as good feedback was probably lost in the noise. Also, there's tons of feedback that is being ignored: http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studi... A simple "maybe" or "won't do because X" would go a long way.
  - ryanmolden 14y ago

by pbz 14y ago

ryanmolden 14y ago

>When people feel that the VS side has their fingers in their ears, one needs to yell louder to be heard. The problem is the people they are 'yelling louder' at are not the people making the decisions, they are simply the ones that have to/volunteer to face the mob. I try and be civil in my feedback for products I use even if I am pissed off because I know there is a human being at the other end and they are more than likely operating under similar constraints/deadlines/rules as everyone else in the world. Sometimes I disagree with their decisions, sometimes violently, but I try to approach the conversation from the mindset that they aren't simply doing it to annoy me, because they aren't. >Claiming to paying attention to feedback when clearly not doing so is also quite frustrating. Not sure how we could be considered to be ignoring people. Have you seen this announcement? Have you seen the massive UX changes due to Beta feedback? The only thing I can think of is the ALL CAPS issue, but that actually came in RC itself, and as someone else pointed out in the GP of this thread, that is also announced as being something that users will be able to tweak. >A counter-example is how ScottGu handles situations like this -- or used to, nowadays he doesn't seem to have that much free time. ScottGu is a VP now, he likely doesn't involve himself personally in many issues like that anymore as it doesn't scale and his time is more valuably spent in other pursuits. >On the other side, one thousand people ask for the same thing and they're being ignored. Do you see my point? I would if people were actually being ignored, I don't see anything in any recent announcement that would indicate that. Care to point out an issue with lots of feedback that is being ignored? And to be clear I don't consider "ignored" == "not doing what I want them to". Feedback can be given, even at large volume, and not result in a change of course. If the people making the decisions feel, even in the light of the feedback, that their course is correct that is their decision to make. Ignoring would be simply not even addressing the feedback at all and just blindly going about your planned course as if the feedback didn't exist. If I think to the major feedback points I recall they were Feedback: Don't like only being able to make Metro apps with Express. Conclusion: See the post this thread is located in. Feedback: Hate (dislike strongly) the UX in Beta. Conclusion: See the RC release. Feedback: Hate the ALL CAPS menu in RC. Conclusion: See blog post where it was said officially that there will be a way to tweak this (not sure what that way will be, but it will be present). Feedback: Hate that I can't build things in C++ that target XP using 2012. Conclusion: Still sad panda (I have no hand in that matter though so I can't speak with any intelligence on it).

drivebyacct2 14y ago
>Feedback: Hate that I can't build things in C++ that target XP using 2012. lol. I apparently need to come give the VS team a brief on the VS team decisions. They've reacted to that crticism as well and are going to release an Express SKU with Desktop support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visual-studio-express-2012-for-windows-desktop.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/08/visu...
- ryanmolden 14y ago
  No, that release targets 'all OS versions that 2012 supports'. XP is not in that list. And in fact that link is just the link that the Ars link I posted to points to (whew). The problem with XP is that the CRT in 2012 is not supported on XP, thus any programs you built on it that depend on said CRT would not run on XP. http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/690617 http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/6...
pbz 14y ago
Again, I'm not saying that being rude or inconsiderate is ever justified. However, when trying to look at a response from a psychological point of view, you kind of have to throw out notions about what is right and wrong as these tend to taint the data. The fact that people felt like they had to keep commenting and commenting saying the same thing over and over should tell us something. When the original beta was introduced it was not a "hey guys, what do you think of the new UI" type of announcement. It was more of a "this is the new UI, it adheres to the latest and greatest design trends, is better, prettier, more 'energetic'; you will love it!" People felt patronized so they gave their feedback in droves. This later set the tone that the only way they're going to listen is if we bury them in feedback. Of course this is unfortunate as good feedback was probably lost in the noise. Also, there's tons of feedback that is being ignored: http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studi... A simple "maybe" or "won't do because X" would go a long way.
- ryanmolden 14y ago