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In India, there is a custom of passing ancient knowledge through poetic verses. Every poetic verses is sung in a specific 'meter'. If there is a discrepancy in
by utkarsh858 2y ago
In India, there is a custom of passing ancient knowledge through poetic verses. Every poetic verses is sung in a specific 'meter'. If there is a discrepancy in recitation then remembering and passing knowledge 'letter by letter' can not succeed.
Many of the verses are thousands of years old.
I read some describing an ancient extinct river ~7000 years ago, later rediscovered through satellite imagery (don't know the right term).
- dyauspitr 2y agoThe river is the Sarasvati.
- RandomCitizen12 2y agoThat's an interesting way to do a checksum
- nsenifty 2y agoThe metre is a basic checksum, but there are more elaborated systems (pathas) of chanting verses that aids in correct learning and memorization. Some of it is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant#Oral_transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant#Oral_transmission An example in action - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdq15ptqUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdq15ptqUs
- swatcoder 2y agoYeah, in language that suits HN, formal poetic structure amounts to error correction in oral tradition. It dramatically narrows the possibilities of what idea or word or sound or whatever could fit in any particular place in the verse, making it easier to memorize and accurately recite. Clever (and some blundering) poets and changes in language still set up these recitations to evolve away from whatever they originally were, but the original seeds linger a long, long time.
- verisimi 2y agoYes poetry is a sort of decent checksum. However I think parables are an even better checksum, as they can be translated also, but if the meaning is altered the story fails to be coherent. Parables are imo, the best form of information transference across time, imo.
- Hypomixolydian 2y agoThis is what Manly P. Hall described as "acroamatic cipher" in his book "The Secret Teachings Of All Ages" [chapter "The Cryptogram as a factor in Symbolic Philosophy"]
- roughly 2y agoMeaning is culturally contingent, though - the appropriate “moral” of a parable can change as culture changes around it, which can lead to changes to the parable itself. For a contrived example, 100 years ago, the idea that one would defy one’s parents and pursue one’s own dreams would have been frowned upon, and any parables referencing that action would clearly contain the moral that one should listen to one’s parents. Today, that would be an almost unthinkable moral - discard your dreams and stick to whatever hidebound business your parents were in? Surely we got something wrong in the translation here. Written in meter, though, clearly the only word that fits here is “shan’t”, not “must”.
- verisimi 2y agoI bet you've not seen a mustard seed, but you still get what is being said, in the parable of the mustard seed. If the parable is talking to a foundational reality, rather than cultural situations, I think it can endure. I get what you are saying, but even parables don't have 'the truth'. I would imagine that there may even be parables that argue the opposite position. And both, opposing positions could be right, depending on the context.
- 10u152 2y agoThis is tangential, but have people really not seen a mustard seed? Seeded/whole seed mustard was commonplace in my family.
- greenhearth 2y agoAn example of this may be the healing spells found in the Merseburg charms, which probably came from a common Indo-European origin somewhere in the Eurasian steppes.
- golergka 2y agoIsn't that how ancient Greek texts (that are attributed to mythical Homer) have been passed down too?
- mrmetanoia 2y agoyes, many cultures had/have oral traditions that include poetics. The Finnish "Kalevala," is another epic written down from an oral poem/song.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoI'm 99% confident (I have no sources because I'm lazy) the written versions of the various bible books were originally orally passed-down stories as well. Weren't the stories about Jesus written down ~70 years after his passing?
- xienze 2y agoThat’s clever and all, but how can you actually be sure the message was completely unchanged over 7000 years without an original written record? I get that special recitation tricks can make it harder to mess up, but I don’t think you can definitively say the information never once changed.
- utkarsh858 2y agoThe people who follow this tradition of oral recitation where trained from childhood in a special school (kind of boarding) where certain values facilitating the lossless transfer of meaning like truthfulness, honesty etc, were imbibed deep into students. It was strictly not allowed to edit (add or subtract) the original verses( if one does so he/she can write another book). After certain years has passed by, only those who were capable enough and 'morally' qualified were authorised to become teachers and pass on the knowledge. Even today in some places in India(not so rampant as in like 100 years ago) the same culture is followed.
- _yy01 2y agoBecause it was taught that the accents contain the meaning beyond the linguistic meanings of the words. It was sacred and you're not allowed to mispronounce it. 7000 is a bold estimate. But they remained intact for 3000 years in the face of significant religious changes. Today modern Hindu hardly knows whats there in the Vedas, and religious customs are significantly different. But these verses are letter-to-letter same across India.
- Ar-Curunir 2y agoThe Saraswati description in the RgVeda is not 7000 years old. The text itself is believed to be only around 3500 years old
- utkarsh858 2y agoThe river itself dried in around ~5000BC. The text attributed itself as being authored in 3000BC. The idea that text was written in 1500BC (3500 years ago) was proposed by Max Muller which was contested by his contemporary western and Indian scholars alike ( they proposed earlier dates) In his late life, Max himself admitted that the dates he gave were hypothetical, they were to considered minimum and it could actually be more than that.
- g8oz 2y ago"Scientific data and new evidence converge on the understanding that between 3000 and 2000 BCE (about 4,000 years ago), the river's demise began when Sutlej diverted from the present-day Ghaggar-Hakra valley to join the river Beas. By around 3792 BP (c. 1800 BCE), the river had completely dried up." https://theprint.in/opinion/first-we-lost-saraswati-river-now-we-are-losing-archaeological-sites-along-ghaggar-too/2004923/ https://theprint.in/opinion/first-we-lost-saraswati-river-no...
- utkarsh858 2y agoThanks for the clarification! I was referencing from an archaeological website of India and had confused BP with BC along with many other things:P
- Ar-Curunir 2y agoI encourage you to read research literature from the last century. Given that all of our linguistic estimates put Proto-Indo-European itself at around 3000 BCE, it makes no sense to claim that the RigVeda was composed earlier at that time. Indeed, Sanskrit likely did not exist at that time.
- 2y ago
- utkarsh858 2y agoOne correction guys, river had started drying around 4000 years ago and took 500-1000 years to dry completely.