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Very stupid of the UK, but I guess it shows that the UK really doesn't want any immigrants unless they're very rich. I do wonder, however, why the companies th

Very stupid of the UK, but I guess it shows that the UK really doesn't want any immigrants unless they're very rich. I do wonder, however, why the companies that want to hire these top scientists, aren't paying all these fees for them. If they really want to recruit these people, then paying all necessary visa costs should be part of the job offer. By way of comparison, getting a job like this here in Japan costs 3000 yen (about USD $19 right now) for the visa fee. Perhaps that's why this country is one of the "leading scientific nations" (according to the article): it's really, really easy to bring qualified professionals here, at least as far as immigration procedures and fees are concerned.

rightbyte 2y ago
I don't think the fee is a problem unless the 'top scientists' are actually juniors grinding mundane lab tasks. The real issue is the symbolism where people don't feel welcome I guess.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  You don't think a fee of USD $27000 (fee for family of 4 from article) is a problem for a scientist? Just how much money do you think scientists make anyway? Even for a well-paid software engineer, that's easily enough money to make them not bother looking at jobs in that country, and the UK isn't known for high salaries either so it's even worse.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    Ye 27000USD is a no go for like most or almost all prospective scientists if they have to pay it themself. I think I misunderstood the article.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >I think I misunderstood the article. That's understandable, I think: This policy in the UK is so shockingly and bone-headedly stupid that it probably seems completely unbelievable, so your brain tries to interpret it in some other way that makes more sense.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    >You don't think a fee of USD $27000 (fee for family of 4 from article) is a problem for a scientist? Presumably the companies that really need to import talent would cover those fees for them if imported talent is actually necessary. Companies in the US pay similar fees to sponsor imported employees and no one complains about the costs.
    - tardy_one 2y ago
      I won't deal with a company covering those kinds of fees or even a headhunter in the UK for a European job. There's a lot of room there for problems and anyone who is worth paying $27k on top of generous relocation has a lot of choices that are better than the UK in terms of actually delivered compensation.
      - Suppafly 2y ago
        >There's a lot of room there for problems and anyone who is worth paying $27k on top of generous relocation has a lot of choices that are better than the UK in terms of actually delivered compensation. That seems like an argument in favor of UK businesses paying these fees. It's an employee's market for top talent and employers bear the burden of paying any sorts of fees necessary to get top talent. The alternative is for that sort of industry to just not be viable in the UK.
- _Wintermute 2y ago
  A Post-doc at a prestigious research institute will probably be earning around £40,000, almost certainly in a HCOL area where rent for a 1 bed flat is £1,500+ a month. The fee is a legitimate financial concern for them.
- blitzar 2y ago
  'top scientists' in the uk make less than interns at google.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Top scientist anywhere make less than interns at the world's richest AD delivery company.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    how much rent does that internship salary pay? my buddy was paying around $5k/month USD for his rent when he was doing FAANG work in SF.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Yeah, it's not just the UK. Scientists in the US make lousy money too. They're actually a lot better off taking their science degree, quitting science work, and going into patent law to work on patents that the underpaid scientists create. You don't even need a law degree; you can work under a patent attorney. (Obviously the pay isn't as good as someone with a JD or LLM, but it's better than the people doing the actual science work.)
pjc50 2y ago
It's not especially easy to bring people to Japan because of all the other administrative barriers around housing, bank accounts, etc., as well as the language requirement. As can be seen from the low immigration rate.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >It's not especially easy to bring people to Japan because of all the other administrative barriers around housing, bank accounts, etc., as well as the language requirement. As can be seen from the low immigration rate. Wrong. It was really easy for me. The low immigration rate is because it's not a terribly popular place to live, and because of the language barrier. It's also historically been not very immigration-friendly (legally, the immigration laws were strict), but that's changed radically in the last decade or so. Now if you have in-demand skills and a company wants to hire you, you're in. Housing and bank accounts aren't a problem. I got multiple bank accounts pretty quickly after moving here. Housing is pretty easy: some (individual) landlords won't look at you if you don't speak Japanese, but the corporate landlords don't care, as long as you have a guarantor and a job that pays enough for the rent. The language is the biggest barrier, but that depends on your job. Companies that try to recruit skilled foreign professionals have strong English-language support.
  - robin_reala 2y ago
    Having been tempted in the past but put off by Japanese work culture tropes, would you say that that has also changed radically?
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      it has, but not a lot. industry and location also matter, but chances are you're not being recruited abroad to be a fisherman or noodle-maker in a 2nd tier city.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      It depends on where you work, like any place. If you work in a western (or westernized) company that uses English internally and where all your coworkers are expats, it's probably not too different from a typical US tech company.

rightbyte 2y ago

I don't think the fee is a problem unless the 'top scientists' are actually juniors grinding mundane lab tasks. The real issue is the symbolism where people don't feel welcome I guess.

shiroiushi 2y ago
You don't think a fee of USD $27000 (fee for family of 4 from article) is a problem for a scientist? Just how much money do you think scientists make anyway? Even for a well-paid software engineer, that's easily enough money to make them not bother looking at jobs in that country, and the UK isn't known for high salaries either so it's even worse.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Ye 27000USD is a no go for like most or almost all prospective scientists if they have to pay it themself. I think I misunderstood the article.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >I think I misunderstood the article. That's understandable, I think: This policy in the UK is so shockingly and bone-headedly stupid that it probably seems completely unbelievable, so your brain tries to interpret it in some other way that makes more sense.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >You don't think a fee of USD $27000 (fee for family of 4 from article) is a problem for a scientist? Presumably the companies that really need to import talent would cover those fees for them if imported talent is actually necessary. Companies in the US pay similar fees to sponsor imported employees and no one complains about the costs.
  - tardy_one 2y ago
    I won't deal with a company covering those kinds of fees or even a headhunter in the UK for a European job. There's a lot of room there for problems and anyone who is worth paying $27k on top of generous relocation has a lot of choices that are better than the UK in terms of actually delivered compensation.
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      >There's a lot of room there for problems and anyone who is worth paying $27k on top of generous relocation has a lot of choices that are better than the UK in terms of actually delivered compensation. That seems like an argument in favor of UK businesses paying these fees. It's an employee's market for top talent and employers bear the burden of paying any sorts of fees necessary to get top talent. The alternative is for that sort of industry to just not be viable in the UK.
_Wintermute 2y ago
A Post-doc at a prestigious research institute will probably be earning around £40,000, almost certainly in a HCOL area where rent for a 1 bed flat is £1,500+ a month. The fee is a legitimate financial concern for them.
blitzar 2y ago
'top scientists' in the uk make less than interns at google.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Top scientist anywhere make less than interns at the world's richest AD delivery company.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  how much rent does that internship salary pay? my buddy was paying around $5k/month USD for his rent when he was doing FAANG work in SF.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Yeah, it's not just the UK. Scientists in the US make lousy money too. They're actually a lot better off taking their science degree, quitting science work, and going into patent law to work on patents that the underpaid scientists create. You don't even need a law degree; you can work under a patent attorney. (Obviously the pay isn't as good as someone with a JD or LLM, but it's better than the people doing the actual science work.)

pjc50 2y ago

It's not especially easy to bring people to Japan because of all the other administrative barriers around housing, bank accounts, etc., as well as the language requirement. As can be seen from the low immigration rate.

shiroiushi 2y ago
>It's not especially easy to bring people to Japan because of all the other administrative barriers around housing, bank accounts, etc., as well as the language requirement. As can be seen from the low immigration rate. Wrong. It was really easy for me. The low immigration rate is because it's not a terribly popular place to live, and because of the language barrier. It's also historically been not very immigration-friendly (legally, the immigration laws were strict), but that's changed radically in the last decade or so. Now if you have in-demand skills and a company wants to hire you, you're in. Housing and bank accounts aren't a problem. I got multiple bank accounts pretty quickly after moving here. Housing is pretty easy: some (individual) landlords won't look at you if you don't speak Japanese, but the corporate landlords don't care, as long as you have a guarantor and a job that pays enough for the rent. The language is the biggest barrier, but that depends on your job. Companies that try to recruit skilled foreign professionals have strong English-language support.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  Having been tempted in the past but put off by Japanese work culture tropes, would you say that that has also changed radically?
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    it has, but not a lot. industry and location also matter, but chances are you're not being recruited abroad to be a fisherman or noodle-maker in a 2nd tier city.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    It depends on where you work, like any place. If you work in a western (or westernized) company that uses English internally and where all your coworkers are expats, it's probably not too different from a typical US tech company.