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Having tried to start a business and known other business owners, I will die on this hill: sales and marketing are not "acts of malice". Without salespeople we

by davedx 2y ago

Having tried to start a business and known other business owners, I will die on this hill: sales and marketing are not "acts of malice". Without salespeople we wouldn't live in the world we lived today. This is like the irrational hate some developers have for recruiters, despite them finding jobs for many people that they otherwise would never have known about.

eesmith 2y ago
The logic in 'Without salespeople we wouldn't live in the world we lived today' doesn't really support the point you are trying to make. Consider that without thieves we also wouldn't live in the world we live today. That should not be read supporting theft, only an acknowledgement that it exists and that we have designed our lived environment in response.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> This is like the irrational hate some developers have for recruiters It's not like that. As a business owner, be honest with us and yourself: just how much of sales and marketing you did was just bullshit? Exaggerated claims bordering on lies? Manipulative patterns? Inducing demand? Approximately all marketing is that. It is that because it works, and those who refuse to do it get outcompeted by those who don't. Doesn't mean the world should be like that, or that I'd like to be subjected to it. I also question the "we wouldn't live in the world we lived today" bit. In a competitive environment, marketing is a zero-sum game[0]: there's only so many people around, with so much money and time available; most of the marketing spend ends up being used to cancel out the efforts of the competition, and that race can consume all surplus of a company. Red Queen's race and all. -- [0] Or negative-sum, if you account for externalities.
staunton 2y ago
Marketing is fundamentally aimed at changing people's opinions. This can be done 1. covertly (why do you need to do it covertly? Would people mind if they knew? Doesn't that indicate you're doing them a disservice?) 2. overtly, against people's will. (Again, doesn't that indicate you're doing them a disservice?) 3. overtly, with their consent (express or assumed). How often have you seen this happen? The "indicates" vs "shows" distinction above deals with the edge case of "interacting with covert/unwanted marketing is actually good for them, even if they don't know it". I dare you to make that argument...
account42 2y ago
> Having tried to start a business and known other business owners, I will die on this hill: sales and marketing are not "acts of malice". Without salespeople we wouldn't live in the world we lived today. That's exactly the reason why we hate them.

by davedx 2y ago

eesmith 2y ago

The logic in 'Without salespeople we wouldn't live in the world we lived today' doesn't really support the point you are trying to make. Consider that without thieves we also wouldn't live in the world we live today. That should not be read supporting theft, only an acknowledgement that it exists and that we have designed our lived environment in response.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

> This is like the irrational hate some developers have for recruiters It's not like that. As a business owner, be honest with us and yourself: just how much of sales and marketing you did was just bullshit? Exaggerated claims bordering on lies? Manipulative patterns? Inducing demand? Approximately all marketing is that. It is that because it works, and those who refuse to do it get outcompeted by those who don't. Doesn't mean the world should be like that, or that I'd like to be subjected to it. I also question the "we wouldn't live in the world we lived today" bit. In a competitive environment, marketing is a zero-sum game[0]: there's only so many people around, with so much money and time available; most of the marketing spend ends up being used to cancel out the efforts of the competition, and that race can consume all surplus of a company. Red Queen's race and all. -- [0] Or negative-sum, if you account for externalities.

staunton 2y ago

Marketing is fundamentally aimed at changing people's opinions. This can be done 1. covertly (why do you need to do it covertly? Would people mind if they knew? Doesn't that indicate you're doing them a disservice?) 2. overtly, against people's will. (Again, doesn't that indicate you're doing them a disservice?) 3. overtly, with their consent (express or assumed). How often have you seen this happen? The "indicates" vs "shows" distinction above deals with the edge case of "interacting with covert/unwanted marketing is actually good for them, even if they don't know it". I dare you to make that argument...

account42 2y ago

> Having tried to start a business and known other business owners, I will die on this hill: sales and marketing are not "acts of malice". Without salespeople we wouldn't live in the world we lived today. That's exactly the reason why we hate them.