10 ms·

A Bugatti car, a first lady and the fake stories aimed at Americans

64 points by philbo 2y ago

Animats 2y ago
It doesn't have to be credible. It just has to be noise. The West can push back. Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia.[1] Most of these are small and weak, but with outside support, pieces of Russia might be destabilized. St. Petersburg/Leningrad oblast has potential, because it's close to Europe. With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt. [1] https://www.aalep.eu/major-secessionist-movements-russia https://www.aalep.eu/major-secessionist-movements-russia
- riffraff 2y ago
  This makes no sense, the west has a system where people more favorable to Russia can be elected with some effort (trump, le pen, salvini, farage). Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    > Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics. Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics because the people already know he's shit. The issue is that a.) they can't do much about it, and b.) many actually support the invasion.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Farage can only theoretically be elected; in practice, he's never even won his own seat, and his party has had a high of one (out of 650) constituencies, but even that was as a result of someone defecting from a different party. I'm not even sure if he made a difference about Brexit vs. Johnson.
- sam_lowry_ 2y ago
  While US have had some influence on Russian domestic politics 25 years ago, it has none now. The list is interesting as the base for the scission of Russia once the West wins the war, though.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  Given the past couple years' events in Ukraine, separatism or succession might look pretty unattractive to Russians. A far more enticing scenario would be a second Wagner Group Rebellion...one that was competently organized and lead, and successfully replaced the current regime. Putin most certainly remembers how disinterested both his citizens and his military were in opposing the tiny, ragtag Wagner Group's march toward Moscow.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Don't hold your breath for that, steps have been taken that should prevent it in future. puttin' ain't the smartest currently, but he still has some chops form his KGB career and is paranoid beyond wildest imagination. Anybody who posed any sort of real threat has been murdered either by throwing out of some high windows or just whole family with kids slaughtered for show. People in the west don't grok how downtrodden russian population is, for centuries, cca continuously. Thats why democracy didn't work there, people let wolves do whatever they wanted since nobody understood that you actually have to stand up to them, so we are where we are. Military comes from the same population, just worse characters. There ain't no easy solution that we would like. They are not rational now and I don't think they will be till puttin' dies, and who knows what other clown will take the helm. They don't keep sharpest most rational folks at top levels, and next guy won't be somebody from lower ranks.
    - bell-cot 2y ago
      > Don't hold your breath ... No, I don't particularly expect it to happen. But Russia has a long history of revolutions when things (especially wars) were not going well for the current Czar / General Secretary / whatever. > There ain't no easy solution that we would like. True, for the big picture. But my comment was in response to user Animats saying "The West can push back." (About the article, on Russian fake news operations targeting the West.) If pushing back is the game plan, then "what does Putin most fear?" is an excellent basis for the pushback strategy. Ideally, he'd pull the plug on his fake news, because the pushback was too scary.
- eru 2y ago
  > The West can push back. Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia. I'm not sure you necessarily want to fight fire with fire?
  - ovi256 2y ago
    They're already setting us on fire
    - eru 2y ago
      My point is that you might want to fight fire with eg water. So you can fight back, but you don't need to necessarily copy your adversaries tactics.
      - tim333 2y ago
        Indeed I think the west is better sticking to pushing for rule of law, secure borders, human rights and the like. IMO on Ukraine they should have said invading a basically peaceful democratic state to grab its land is unacceptable and we'll support Ukraine winning and taking their land back with whatever weaponry necessary. Instead of the wishy washy, no real goal, drip feed some weapons to get a stalemate where Russia keeps some land. Why still no f16s two and a half year in? Why can't Ukraine hit the airfields they are bombed daily from and so on? Why won't the US govt say they'd like Ukraine to win? Even if they don't, just saying it would be a good tool to scare the Russians into better negotiations.
        eru 2y ago
        It's even worse: Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. It's now 10 years into this conflict.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    This is more like trying to fight fire with cancer - not effective and likely to backfire. Russia is not going to come apart, especially not areas close to the capital. And if it did, you would have thermonuclear weapons in the hands of rando’ nobodies.
- mamonster 2y ago
  >St. Petersburg/Leningrad oblast has potential, because it's close to Europe. With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt You have to be absolutely delusional to believe St Petersburg would be seceding. It's arguably even more imperialistic than than Moscow itself, and it is managed by the staunchest Putin loyalists (Current governor, Beglov, is a full-on militarist and Putin lieutenant since the 90s).
- pjc50 2y ago
  > The West can push back This sort of hybrid warfare does not work in non-free societies. No, the strategy that works is shipping Ukraine a series of rocket artillery with gradually increasing range to target oil infrastructure in the interior. Oh, and sanctions that actually prevent military engineering, such as on machine tools. (edit: if you actually want to peel territory off Russian control, you could start with the satellite states in the caucasus, or the weird Russian exclave in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria )
- justsomehnguy 2y ago
  > Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia >> Sakha: Sakha or Yakut separatism seeks the creation of an independent Yakutian state. The primary cause of Yakut separatism is economic exploitation by the federal government. Tell me you never looked at the map without telling me anything. > Most of these are small and weak, but with outside support, pieces of Russia might be destabilized Ah, yes, when the Free World (tm) doing this it is the Right Thing (tm). It's only when whose untermenschen not from the Free World (tm) is doing exactly the same then it's totally not the Right Thing (tm). > With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt. I wouldn't even bet my pumpkin latte what if Russia would 'support from the outside' some separatism movements you would scream bloody murder. It's always fascinating to see people actively inciting a war, while comfortably sitting an ocean away from any consequences.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    Ye, it’s wired how advocating for/inciting civil war in a nuclear armed state is not questioned as A) inhumane B) violation of all proclaimed western values C) mad dangerous
- surfingdino 2y ago
  There is no need to do more than park the might of the NATO military along the borders and watch the Russian army die in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is waged in Excel and it is an equation with the expected outcome of destroying their military, equipment and personnel. Dead men won't have children, so the more of them die there the weaker Russia will be in the decades to come.
  - ramesh31 2y ago
    > Dead men won't have children, so the more of them die there the weaker Russia will be in the decades to come. Sadly it seems this is Putin's goal as well. What we are seeing is looking more and more like a mass genocide of Russia's undesirables by means of Forever War, with any further territorial gains as a nice bonus. And with all forms of dissent ground into the dust, and a global market more than happy to keep buying his oil, he can continue at this pace indefinitely.
    - surfingdino 2y ago
      Not indefinitely. He lost skilled workers, his infrastructure is falling apart and the Western companies that used to maintain it are not coming back. He will be soon leasing Siberia to China.
      - ramesh31 2y ago
        >Not indefinitely. He lost skilled workers, his infrastructure is falling apart and the Western companies that used to maintain it are not coming back. Indefinitely meaning at least his lifetime of the next 10-15 years. It doesn't take much skill to manufacture rifles and artillery shells. Probably there will be some uneasy truce reached in that time. But in the end this war will most likely look a lot like Iran-Iraq: ~1 million total military dead over ten years with no meaningful gains on either side.
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      > mass genocide of Russia's undesirables by means of Forever War The war indeed has no clear endpoint, and claiming that ‘Russia is hurt, that is good’ is not a replacement for having a plan. One must consider casualties on the Ukrainian side, and they should not be in vain. This is how you end up with a debacle like Afghanistan. Re. Genocide I think it’s unhelpful to muddy the water. Russia is a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. It’s made up of ethnic and religious republics - for example Chechnya is Islamic. Some of these ethnic groups don’t like each other. Putin does not allow talk of ethnic cleansing or similar because it will open the door to internal conflict and would be the beginning of Russia falling apart. Look at the tone in the press for internal consumption, both in Russia and in the certain western supported Middle Eastern country. Use google translate, for example: https://www.vesti.ru/article/4029512 https://www.vesti.ru/article/4029512 And then compare it with the tone of this, written by a minister of national security: https://x.com/itamarbengvir/status/1808031178277925263 https://x.com/itamarbengvir/status/1808031178277925263
- cies 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pjc50 2y ago
    Russia has already made Ukraine into its next Afghanistan. They'll eventually leave after huge casualties. > strong bloc of Russia-China-Iran-DPRK-Belarus Lol.
    - cies 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - pjc50 2y ago
        > See how Mariupol is being rebuilt You cannot expect praise for needlessly destroying somewhere and then rebuilding it.
        cies 2y ago
        > You cannot expect praise for needlessly destroying somewhere and then rebuilding it. The word "needlessly" is being contested. If the Minsk accord were adhered to it was not needed. Apparently some felt this was needed. Also: what did US/Ukraine do to rebuild Iraq? As that was my point... The wars are very different and IMHO Russia behaves much better in all phases (the lead up, and the war itself) than the US did in all it's invasions (and Ukraine did in it's invasion of Iraq).
        distances 2y ago
        > The wars are very different and IMHO Russia behaves much better in all phases (the lead up, and the war itself) than the US did in all it's invasions This, like most of your claims, is full-on delusional, or just brazen propaganda. I probably shouldn't bother even answering. Russian attack is best compared to USSR and German attacks in WW2, not any modern scenario. Both in the authoritarian and imperialistic setup, and in the execution that has no qualms with generating war crimes of all kinds.
- lossolo 2y ago
  > The West can push back. Isn't it obvious that the West, particularly the US, as their decisions are most influential, does not want to fully push back? By "fully" I mean desiring Russia's collapse. That’s why, even after two years, they haven't provided jet fighters (yet), nor have they permitted the use of their weapons to target Russia more extensively (only on borders with Kharkiv after 2 years of war). Actions speak louder than words. This behavior is clearly reactive, enough weapons are provided to maintain the status quo, ensuring that Russia does not advance further, but not enough for Ukrainians to alter the current situation on the battlefield. If the US wanted to, they could supply Ukraine with enough weapons to defeat Russia on the battlefield. But that’s not the goal, it’s not about Ukraine winning, but about not losing and preventing Russia from winning. A complete defeat of Russia is contrary to US interests, anarchy and chaos in a nuclear state would be far more dangerous, especially given that regions like Tajikistan have significant potential for terrorism (consider how ISIS started). Such a scenario would likely push Russia closer to becoming a Chinese vassal, which is against US interests. If you believe that a genuine democracy could emerge from that chaos, then you don't understand Russia at all. The deep state there is as entrenched, if not more so, than Putin, and it holds enough power and influence to prevent any truly democratic force from emerging. There is no real opposition left after Navalny's death.
wwilim 2y ago
In 2024, it's completely rational to be a paranoid conspiracy theorist. Because this time, the Russians are really behind all of it.
- dewclin 2y ago
  Both sides use propaganda.
  - mgoetzke 2y ago
    There is a definite imbalance. Russia is using it way more aggressively by far. And they actually physically attack us as well
  - martinko 2y ago
    This false equivalence is literally russian propaganda.
    - dewclin 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_propaganda_during_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_propaganda_during_Ru...
      - martinko 2y ago
        Really comparing the 'ghost of kiev' to the systemic undermining of western democracy by russia?
    - viridian 2y ago
      This just reads as "propaganda is when people say things I don't like". An actual, academic study of propaganda, such as the course that the University of Nottingham offers, makes clear a very different fact. The USA is far and away the greatest propaganda engine the world has ever seen, and it hasn't been close since the cold war was raging. We push out our ideologies and force the normalization of American culture onto half of the world. Looking at a globe it's actually harder to find a nation that isn't a client state than is. The lumbering, outdated regional power that is the current Russian state wishes they could wield propaganda a quarter as well as America.
deleted 2y ago
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guesswho_ 2y ago
[flagged]
- lkdfjlkdfjlg 2y ago
  Here, you forgot to link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- piva00 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - cabirum 2y ago
    In 2014, US and EU staged a coup, replacing the elected govt with their puppets. That is how it started.
    - piva00 2y ago
      Do you have any sources with proof that Euromaidan was staged by US and the EU? That's not what I get from conversations with Ukrainian friends who were there protesting so please provide me proof they were manipulated by the US and EU to stage a coup against a government they didn't like (aka a Russian puppet).
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  You can be critics of both Russia and America. We have cancer and you want to ignore it because we also have diabetes, that's a weird stance. As a member of the EU, it's only logical to be more worried about Russia crossing the Ukraine border than American propaganda. The risk the US lose their head and decide to attack the EU is nil. The risk Russia decides that they want to restore the USRR if the Ukraine invasion is a success is plausible. Is it going to happen? We don't know. But we don't want to find out.
  - kreetx 2y ago
    As another EU member I can say as well that I'd prefer any US hegemony (financial, cultural, etc with all their negative effects) over the physical violence and authoritarian regime coming from the East.
briandear 2y ago
I will never forget the Ghost of Kiev nonsense. As an American, I wish we’d stay out of the Ukraine war. The Ukrainians have actual Nazis. And no, that isn’t “propaganda.” The Russians were wrong to invade but the Ukrainians aren’t any more righteous. But it isn’t my problem — tens of billions of American tax dollars are going to Ukraine with no accountability. In the U.S., open borders policies have led to the rape and murder of a 12 year old girl in Houston, along with many other high profile violent murders by illegal aliens who should have been blocked from entry and deported. Trump wanted $5 billion for a border wall — Democrats said “we can’t afford that” — and then promptly send $100 billion to Ukraine when Biden’s elected. I am not arguing for a border wall, but it’s curious how “we can’t afford it” but found plenty of billions to support a country with whom Biden has a financial history. The profound quickness with which the left wing in the U.S. started displaying Ukrainian flags and hashtags ought to be studied. The Ukraine propaganda machine took American money and spends it to convince Americans to give more money. Astounding how clever that was. Ukraine can’t win this war and I’m tired of paying for it. If they want to keep fighting, then they can keep funding it.
- maeln 2y ago
  Petty change to have the possibility to disrupt one of your biggest rival on the world stage without having to shed a single drop of american blood ? Looks to me Like a pretty good deal.
  - alex00 2y ago
    The Ukraine War though has been now transformed into an Afghanistan War. No end in sight, wasting a lot of money, and a distraction to important issues. Also it has been empowering the opposition against the dollar. The US cannot support a 34 trillion dollar debt if fewer countries use the dollar.
    - Mordisquitos 2y ago
      > The Ukraine War though has been now transformed into an Afghanistan War. No end in sight, wasting a lot of money, and a distraction to important issues. Indeed, the analogy is obvious. Just like the Afghanistan Wars were a waste of lives, money, and morale for its invaders —USSR (1979-89) & USA (2001-21)—, so is the Ukrainian War being the same kind of waste for the invading Russia (2014/2022-...).
forloni 2y ago
The Nord Stream 2 pipelines where blown up and Reuters were reporting that Russia did it.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  You have a source for that? All I ever read was “suspected of”. If you’re an actual reader then you read that as suspected and not “did blow up”. To my knowledge I’ve never seen a western source that said Russia did it, other than opinion pieces which are by definition suspect and “opinion”
Mordisquitos 2y ago
A bit of an unfortunate first 3 paragraphs resulting from the writing style (emphasis mine): > A network of Russia-based websites masquerading as local American newspapers is pumping out fake stories as part of an AI-powered operation that is increasingly targeting the US election, a BBC investigation can reveal. > A former Florida police officer who relocated to Moscow is one of the key figures behind it. > It would have been a bombshell report - if it was true. > [...] I had to do a double take before I realised that the emphasised paragraph was referring to the following text yet-to-be-read and not to the preceding opening paragraphs.
- jolmg 2y ago
  It's been revised: > The following would have been a bombshell report - if it were true.
surfingdino 2y ago
The thing Russians never understood after 1989 is that nobody is going to be marching on Moscow. Even Eastern European countries do not care about Russia. It is seen as a failed neighbouring state with nothing to offer. They lied to the West and used all opportunities offered to them to wage wars and weaken Western democracies instead of improving the living conditions of their own population. If you think this is all propaganda, compare the numbers of Russians migrating to the West to the numbers of Westerners migrating to Russia after 1989. Almost nobody wants to go and live there. It's a shithole. A dangerous shithole that keeps murdering people wholesale.
- alex00 2y ago
  It's the other way around. The US has done a lot of work to contain Russia and not allow them to develop their economy.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    The only reason the Russian economy is weak is Putin. He could have easily democratized and worked with other Western nations on infrastructure and improving life for his citizens, instead he continues to subjugate, propagandize, and toss them into his military meat grinder like Stalin. He thinks the war economy will make Russia prosper, instead he’s killing off his next generation of men to improve the country. Russia has bountiful land and resources and wastes them on this crap.
    - alex00 2y ago
      We do not really care about "democracies". We just want friendly governments that are on our side. We are fine with Saudi Arabia which is the exact opposite of a democracy because they are our loyal ally. We prefer "democracies" because we can covertly influence their elections. Our democracy is not good either. We still hold elections on Tuesdays, an inconvenience to many. Why not on a Sunday like everyone else? We have just two political parties, no third-party candidate is ever going to get elected.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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BiteCode_dev 2y ago
If you go on Tik Tok, sometimes you see fake French news, with the proper setting, format, voices, and sometimes faces. It's quite believable, especially on a platform where you scroll mindlessly. But if you look for the bit online, you will not find it on the official TV channel website because it never happened. I'm used to my gov and American propaganda, but they are rarely faking the whole thing, mostly selectively presenting a certain truth or point of view. That's new to me: completely fabricated, sophisticated facts and media.
jolmg 2y ago
Why is this flagged?

64 points by philbo 2y ago

It doesn't have to be credible. It just has to be noise. The West can push back. Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia.[1] Most of these are small and weak, but with outside support, pieces of Russia might be destabilized. St. Petersburg/Leningrad oblast has potential, because it's close to Europe. With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt. [1] https://www.aalep.eu/major-secessionist-movements-russia https://www.aalep.eu/major-secessionist-movements-russia

riffraff 2y ago
This makes no sense, the west has a system where people more favorable to Russia can be elected with some effort (trump, le pen, salvini, farage). Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics.
- fakedang 2y ago
  > Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics. Discrediting Putin online will have zero effect on Russian politics because the people already know he's shit. The issue is that a.) they can't do much about it, and b.) many actually support the invasion.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Farage can only theoretically be elected; in practice, he's never even won his own seat, and his party has had a high of one (out of 650) constituencies, but even that was as a result of someone defecting from a different party. I'm not even sure if he made a difference about Brexit vs. Johnson.
sam_lowry_ 2y ago
While US have had some influence on Russian domestic politics 25 years ago, it has none now. The list is interesting as the base for the scission of Russia once the West wins the war, though.
bell-cot 2y ago
Given the past couple years' events in Ukraine, separatism or succession might look pretty unattractive to Russians. A far more enticing scenario would be a second Wagner Group Rebellion...one that was competently organized and lead, and successfully replaced the current regime. Putin most certainly remembers how disinterested both his citizens and his military were in opposing the tiny, ragtag Wagner Group's march toward Moscow.
- jajko 2y ago
  Don't hold your breath for that, steps have been taken that should prevent it in future. puttin' ain't the smartest currently, but he still has some chops form his KGB career and is paranoid beyond wildest imagination. Anybody who posed any sort of real threat has been murdered either by throwing out of some high windows or just whole family with kids slaughtered for show. People in the west don't grok how downtrodden russian population is, for centuries, cca continuously. Thats why democracy didn't work there, people let wolves do whatever they wanted since nobody understood that you actually have to stand up to them, so we are where we are. Military comes from the same population, just worse characters. There ain't no easy solution that we would like. They are not rational now and I don't think they will be till puttin' dies, and who knows what other clown will take the helm. They don't keep sharpest most rational folks at top levels, and next guy won't be somebody from lower ranks.
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    > Don't hold your breath ... No, I don't particularly expect it to happen. But Russia has a long history of revolutions when things (especially wars) were not going well for the current Czar / General Secretary / whatever. > There ain't no easy solution that we would like. True, for the big picture. But my comment was in response to user Animats saying "The West can push back." (About the article, on Russian fake news operations targeting the West.) If pushing back is the game plan, then "what does Putin most fear?" is an excellent basis for the pushback strategy. Ideally, he'd pull the plug on his fake news, because the pushback was too scary.
eru 2y ago
> The West can push back. Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia. I'm not sure you necessarily want to fight fire with fire?
- ovi256 2y ago
  They're already setting us on fire
  - eru 2y ago
    My point is that you might want to fight fire with eg water. So you can fight back, but you don't need to necessarily copy your adversaries tactics.
    - tim333 2y ago
      Indeed I think the west is better sticking to pushing for rule of law, secure borders, human rights and the like. IMO on Ukraine they should have said invading a basically peaceful democratic state to grab its land is unacceptable and we'll support Ukraine winning and taking their land back with whatever weaponry necessary. Instead of the wishy washy, no real goal, drip feed some weapons to get a stalemate where Russia keeps some land. Why still no f16s two and a half year in? Why can't Ukraine hit the airfields they are bombed daily from and so on? Why won't the US govt say they'd like Ukraine to win? Even if they don't, just saying it would be a good tool to scare the Russians into better negotiations.
      - eru 2y ago
        It's even worse: Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. It's now 10 years into this conflict.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  This is more like trying to fight fire with cancer - not effective and likely to backfire. Russia is not going to come apart, especially not areas close to the capital. And if it did, you would have thermonuclear weapons in the hands of rando’ nobodies.
mamonster 2y ago
>St. Petersburg/Leningrad oblast has potential, because it's close to Europe. With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt You have to be absolutely delusional to believe St Petersburg would be seceding. It's arguably even more imperialistic than than Moscow itself, and it is managed by the staunchest Putin loyalists (Current governor, Beglov, is a full-on militarist and Putin lieutenant since the 90s).
pjc50 2y ago
> The West can push back This sort of hybrid warfare does not work in non-free societies. No, the strategy that works is shipping Ukraine a series of rocket artillery with gradually increasing range to target oil infrastructure in the interior. Oh, and sanctions that actually prevent military engineering, such as on machine tools. (edit: if you actually want to peel territory off Russian control, you could start with the satellite states in the caucasus, or the weird Russian exclave in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria )
justsomehnguy 2y ago
> Here's a 2023 list of separatist movements within Russia >> Sakha: Sakha or Yakut separatism seeks the creation of an independent Yakutian state. The primary cause of Yakut separatism is economic exploitation by the federal government. Tell me you never looked at the map without telling me anything. > Most of these are small and weak, but with outside support, pieces of Russia might be destabilized Ah, yes, when the Free World (tm) doing this it is the Right Thing (tm). It's only when whose untermenschen not from the Free World (tm) is doing exactly the same then it's totally not the Right Thing (tm). > With Finland and Estonia both in NATO, access to St. Peterburg is available. The Russian military is rather busy with Ukraine, and there might not be enough troops available to quickly suppress an internal revolt. I wouldn't even bet my pumpkin latte what if Russia would 'support from the outside' some separatism movements you would scream bloody murder. It's always fascinating to see people actively inciting a war, while comfortably sitting an ocean away from any consequences.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  Ye, it’s wired how advocating for/inciting civil war in a nuclear armed state is not questioned as A) inhumane B) violation of all proclaimed western values C) mad dangerous
surfingdino 2y ago
There is no need to do more than park the might of the NATO military along the borders and watch the Russian army die in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is waged in Excel and it is an equation with the expected outcome of destroying their military, equipment and personnel. Dead men won't have children, so the more of them die there the weaker Russia will be in the decades to come.
- ramesh31 2y ago
  > Dead men won't have children, so the more of them die there the weaker Russia will be in the decades to come. Sadly it seems this is Putin's goal as well. What we are seeing is looking more and more like a mass genocide of Russia's undesirables by means of Forever War, with any further territorial gains as a nice bonus. And with all forms of dissent ground into the dust, and a global market more than happy to keep buying his oil, he can continue at this pace indefinitely.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Not indefinitely. He lost skilled workers, his infrastructure is falling apart and the Western companies that used to maintain it are not coming back. He will be soon leasing Siberia to China.
    - ramesh31 2y ago
      >Not indefinitely. He lost skilled workers, his infrastructure is falling apart and the Western companies that used to maintain it are not coming back. Indefinitely meaning at least his lifetime of the next 10-15 years. It doesn't take much skill to manufacture rifles and artillery shells. Probably there will be some uneasy truce reached in that time. But in the end this war will most likely look a lot like Iran-Iraq: ~1 million total military dead over ten years with no meaningful gains on either side.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > mass genocide of Russia's undesirables by means of Forever War The war indeed has no clear endpoint, and claiming that ‘Russia is hurt, that is good’ is not a replacement for having a plan. One must consider casualties on the Ukrainian side, and they should not be in vain. This is how you end up with a debacle like Afghanistan. Re. Genocide I think it’s unhelpful to muddy the water. Russia is a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. It’s made up of ethnic and religious republics - for example Chechnya is Islamic. Some of these ethnic groups don’t like each other. Putin does not allow talk of ethnic cleansing or similar because it will open the door to internal conflict and would be the beginning of Russia falling apart. Look at the tone in the press for internal consumption, both in Russia and in the certain western supported Middle Eastern country. Use google translate, for example: https://www.vesti.ru/article/4029512 https://www.vesti.ru/article/4029512 And then compare it with the tone of this, written by a minister of national security: https://x.com/itamarbengvir/status/1808031178277925263 https://x.com/itamarbengvir/status/1808031178277925263
cies 2y ago
[flagged]
- pjc50 2y ago
  Russia has already made Ukraine into its next Afghanistan. They'll eventually leave after huge casualties. > strong bloc of Russia-China-Iran-DPRK-Belarus Lol.
  - cies 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - pjc50 2y ago
      > See how Mariupol is being rebuilt You cannot expect praise for needlessly destroying somewhere and then rebuilding it.
      - cies 2y ago
        > You cannot expect praise for needlessly destroying somewhere and then rebuilding it. The word "needlessly" is being contested. If the Minsk accord were adhered to it was not needed. Apparently some felt this was needed. Also: what did US/Ukraine do to rebuild Iraq? As that was my point... The wars are very different and IMHO Russia behaves much better in all phases (the lead up, and the war itself) than the US did in all it's invasions (and Ukraine did in it's invasion of Iraq).
        distances 2y ago
        > The wars are very different and IMHO Russia behaves much better in all phases (the lead up, and the war itself) than the US did in all it's invasions This, like most of your claims, is full-on delusional, or just brazen propaganda. I probably shouldn't bother even answering. Russian attack is best compared to USSR and German attacks in WW2, not any modern scenario. Both in the authoritarian and imperialistic setup, and in the execution that has no qualms with generating war crimes of all kinds.
lossolo 2y ago
> The West can push back. Isn't it obvious that the West, particularly the US, as their decisions are most influential, does not want to fully push back? By "fully" I mean desiring Russia's collapse. That’s why, even after two years, they haven't provided jet fighters (yet), nor have they permitted the use of their weapons to target Russia more extensively (only on borders with Kharkiv after 2 years of war). Actions speak louder than words. This behavior is clearly reactive, enough weapons are provided to maintain the status quo, ensuring that Russia does not advance further, but not enough for Ukrainians to alter the current situation on the battlefield. If the US wanted to, they could supply Ukraine with enough weapons to defeat Russia on the battlefield. But that’s not the goal, it’s not about Ukraine winning, but about not losing and preventing Russia from winning. A complete defeat of Russia is contrary to US interests, anarchy and chaos in a nuclear state would be far more dangerous, especially given that regions like Tajikistan have significant potential for terrorism (consider how ISIS started). Such a scenario would likely push Russia closer to becoming a Chinese vassal, which is against US interests. If you believe that a genuine democracy could emerge from that chaos, then you don't understand Russia at all. The deep state there is as entrenched, if not more so, than Putin, and it holds enough power and influence to prevent any truly democratic force from emerging. There is no real opposition left after Navalny's death.

wwilim 2y ago

In 2024, it's completely rational to be a paranoid conspiracy theorist. Because this time, the Russians are really behind all of it.

dewclin 2y ago
Both sides use propaganda.
- mgoetzke 2y ago
  There is a definite imbalance. Russia is using it way more aggressively by far. And they actually physically attack us as well
- martinko 2y ago
  This false equivalence is literally russian propaganda.
  - dewclin 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_propaganda_during_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_propaganda_during_Ru...
    - martinko 2y ago
      Really comparing the 'ghost of kiev' to the systemic undermining of western democracy by russia?
  - viridian 2y ago
    This just reads as "propaganda is when people say things I don't like". An actual, academic study of propaganda, such as the course that the University of Nottingham offers, makes clear a very different fact. The USA is far and away the greatest propaganda engine the world has ever seen, and it hasn't been close since the cold war was raging. We push out our ideologies and force the normalization of American culture onto half of the world. Looking at a globe it's actually harder to find a nation that isn't a client state than is. The lumbering, outdated regional power that is the current Russian state wishes they could wield propaganda a quarter as well as America.

deleted 2y ago

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guesswho_ 2y ago

[flagged]

lkdfjlkdfjlg 2y ago
Here, you forgot to link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
piva00 2y ago
[flagged]
- cabirum 2y ago
  In 2014, US and EU staged a coup, replacing the elected govt with their puppets. That is how it started.
  - piva00 2y ago
    Do you have any sources with proof that Euromaidan was staged by US and the EU? That's not what I get from conversations with Ukrainian friends who were there protesting so please provide me proof they were manipulated by the US and EU to stage a coup against a government they didn't like (aka a Russian puppet).
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
You can be critics of both Russia and America. We have cancer and you want to ignore it because we also have diabetes, that's a weird stance. As a member of the EU, it's only logical to be more worried about Russia crossing the Ukraine border than American propaganda. The risk the US lose their head and decide to attack the EU is nil. The risk Russia decides that they want to restore the USRR if the Ukraine invasion is a success is plausible. Is it going to happen? We don't know. But we don't want to find out.
- kreetx 2y ago
  As another EU member I can say as well that I'd prefer any US hegemony (financial, cultural, etc with all their negative effects) over the physical violence and authoritarian regime coming from the East.

briandear 2y ago

I will never forget the Ghost of Kiev nonsense. As an American, I wish we’d stay out of the Ukraine war. The Ukrainians have actual Nazis. And no, that isn’t “propaganda.” The Russians were wrong to invade but the Ukrainians aren’t any more righteous. But it isn’t my problem — tens of billions of American tax dollars are going to Ukraine with no accountability. In the U.S., open borders policies have led to the rape and murder of a 12 year old girl in Houston, along with many other high profile violent murders by illegal aliens who should have been blocked from entry and deported. Trump wanted $5 billion for a border wall — Democrats said “we can’t afford that” — and then promptly send $100 billion to Ukraine when Biden’s elected. I am not arguing for a border wall, but it’s curious how “we can’t afford it” but found plenty of billions to support a country with whom Biden has a financial history. The profound quickness with which the left wing in the U.S. started displaying Ukrainian flags and hashtags ought to be studied. The Ukraine propaganda machine took American money and spends it to convince Americans to give more money. Astounding how clever that was. Ukraine can’t win this war and I’m tired of paying for it. If they want to keep fighting, then they can keep funding it.

maeln 2y ago
Petty change to have the possibility to disrupt one of your biggest rival on the world stage without having to shed a single drop of american blood ? Looks to me Like a pretty good deal.
- alex00 2y ago
  The Ukraine War though has been now transformed into an Afghanistan War. No end in sight, wasting a lot of money, and a distraction to important issues. Also it has been empowering the opposition against the dollar. The US cannot support a 34 trillion dollar debt if fewer countries use the dollar.
  - Mordisquitos 2y ago
    > The Ukraine War though has been now transformed into an Afghanistan War. No end in sight, wasting a lot of money, and a distraction to important issues. Indeed, the analogy is obvious. Just like the Afghanistan Wars were a waste of lives, money, and morale for its invaders —USSR (1979-89) & USA (2001-21)—, so is the Ukrainian War being the same kind of waste for the invading Russia (2014/2022-...).

forloni 2y ago

The Nord Stream 2 pipelines where blown up and Reuters were reporting that Russia did it.

EasyMark 2y ago
You have a source for that? All I ever read was “suspected of”. If you’re an actual reader then you read that as suspected and not “did blow up”. To my knowledge I’ve never seen a western source that said Russia did it, other than opinion pieces which are by definition suspect and “opinion”

Mordisquitos 2y ago

A bit of an unfortunate first 3 paragraphs resulting from the writing style (emphasis mine): > A network of Russia-based websites masquerading as local American newspapers is pumping out fake stories as part of an AI-powered operation that is increasingly targeting the US election, a BBC investigation can reveal. > A former Florida police officer who relocated to Moscow is one of the key figures behind it. > It would have been a bombshell report - if it was true. > [...] I had to do a double take before I realised that the emphasised paragraph was referring to the following text yet-to-be-read and not to the preceding opening paragraphs.

jolmg 2y ago
It's been revised: > The following would have been a bombshell report - if it were true.

surfingdino 2y ago

The thing Russians never understood after 1989 is that nobody is going to be marching on Moscow. Even Eastern European countries do not care about Russia. It is seen as a failed neighbouring state with nothing to offer. They lied to the West and used all opportunities offered to them to wage wars and weaken Western democracies instead of improving the living conditions of their own population. If you think this is all propaganda, compare the numbers of Russians migrating to the West to the numbers of Westerners migrating to Russia after 1989. Almost nobody wants to go and live there. It's a shithole. A dangerous shithole that keeps murdering people wholesale.

alex00 2y ago
It's the other way around. The US has done a lot of work to contain Russia and not allow them to develop their economy.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  The only reason the Russian economy is weak is Putin. He could have easily democratized and worked with other Western nations on infrastructure and improving life for his citizens, instead he continues to subjugate, propagandize, and toss them into his military meat grinder like Stalin. He thinks the war economy will make Russia prosper, instead he’s killing off his next generation of men to improve the country. Russia has bountiful land and resources and wastes them on this crap.
  - alex00 2y ago
    We do not really care about "democracies". We just want friendly governments that are on our side. We are fine with Saudi Arabia which is the exact opposite of a democracy because they are our loyal ally. We prefer "democracies" because we can covertly influence their elections. Our democracy is not good either. We still hold elections on Tuesdays, an inconvenience to many. Why not on a Sunday like everyone else? We have just two political parties, no third-party candidate is ever going to get elected.

oldpersonintx 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago

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BiteCode_dev 2y ago

If you go on Tik Tok, sometimes you see fake French news, with the proper setting, format, voices, and sometimes faces. It's quite believable, especially on a platform where you scroll mindlessly. But if you look for the bit online, you will not find it on the official TV channel website because it never happened. I'm used to my gov and American propaganda, but they are rarely faking the whole thing, mostly selectively presenting a certain truth or point of view. That's new to me: completely fabricated, sophisticated facts and media.

jolmg 2y ago

Why is this flagged?