14 ms·

EV Motors Without Rare Earth Permanent Magnets

41 points by jnord 2y ago

Paul37829 2y ago
[dead]
leoedin 2y ago
I believe earlier Tesla's used induction motors - which don't tend to have any permanent magnets. The advantage of permanent magnets is pretty small - maybe a couple of percent efficiency. They weigh less, but motor weight is hardly dominant in EVs anyway. The only real resource usage concern for EVs remains the batteries.
- dheera 2y ago
  I'm not an expert on batteries but why are sodium batteries not a thing? It seems sodium would be much easier to procure across the Earth than lithium.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    They are, but building them safely and to high capacity is tricky. So far the lithium we can make is better than the sodium batteries we can make. Though this is an area under active research and so what I wrote is likely out of date. Lithium availability is not the limit to current batteries though.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Same reason most large corporations hardly pay any taxes, I imagine.
  - papercrane 2y ago
    Sodium batteries are a thing. There hasn't been much commercialization of them yet, but the main issue for cars is they have lower energy density than lithium batteries. Currently sodium battery makers are focused on stationary battery applications where energy density is less important.
    - osrec 2y ago
      Swappable low cost sodium batteries are where I think cars may end up in the future. Literally, pull into a swapping station, and have your battery swapped out for a charged one in a couple of minutes. Probably faster than fuelling up your car with petrol.
      - matt2000 2y ago
        This is kind of happening at scale in China right now (only some brands are pursuing it though): https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-battery-swapping-china/ https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-battery-swapping-china/ It's an interesting trade off between swapping station cost and time to charge. I suspect charge times will decrease enough that it's not worth all the physical investment in swapping, it may already not be.
        magicalhippo 2y ago
        Swapping for regular cars is a dead end I think. But for trucks and such I imagine it makes a lot more sense. Much longer charging times vs a quick swap. Much easier to put battery in an easy-to-swap location. Fewer swapping stations needed before it makes sense to utilize it for transportation companies, ie team up with a company that has a few fixed large-volume routes to get going.
      - jjoonathan 2y ago
        Sounds like a big step back from the car charges at home and is "always full" without ever "filling up", except on roadtrips, where it schedules periodic rest stops.
        gregmac 2y ago
        Doesn't preclude charging at home. Just means "swap stations" instead of charging or gas stations. The (major) challenge is what you do with 400-800kg of batteries and a bunch of different vehicle types from different manufacturers. Standardize the size/placement so a robot can do it? Break it down to smaller pack sizes so a human -- driver or attendant? -- can do it? Have each car manufacturer have their own set of stations? Took everyone long enough to agree on a plug, would it be possible to agree on a swappable pack?
  - pkulak 2y ago
    Less kWh per unit mass and volume.
    - KennyBlanken 2y ago
      ...which is fine for energy storage systems in homes, businesses, campuses, and substations.
mschuster91 2y ago
So, first lithium batteries without cobalt, and now motors without rare-earth metals. The end of combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells is coming to an end, no matter what the fossil fuel lobby and the politicians they bought off try to propagandize.
- hulitu 2y ago
  Well, the bier without alcohol did not made people change from the one with. /s
  - thenipper 2y ago
    Anecdotally I'd say it actually has. Myself and a bunch of friends have moved to non-alcoholic craft beers.
    - candiddevmike 2y ago
      If you like IPAs or light beer, NA beer is having a renaissance. Dark beer, not so much.
      - thenipper 2y ago
        I like the dark beer from Athletic. The 'All Out'. It's pretty tasty. N/A Guinness on the other hand is disgusting.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >now motors without rare-earth metals NOW?! Electric motors without rare earth magnets have exited since the very beginning of electric motors, long before those with rare earth magnets became popular due to their better efficiency. They're only now becoming unpopular due to the trade war with China where most of the mining was happening, not because they're somehow worse.
- 2y ago
brianhorakh 2y ago
The article doesn't say explicitly these are high performance non rare earth magnets. Niron uses synthetic tetrataenite (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrataenite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrataenite) which is a fascinating material. Until a recent 2021 discovery it was believed that you could make it easily, but you'd need to let it cool slowly around 30,000 years! Only a few kg existed on earth from meteors. But iron nitride Fe3N would also be a similarly good and less exotic choice. https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magnets-without-the-rare-earth-elements/ https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magne...
- philipkglass 2y ago
  Niron Magnetics is using iron nitride: https://haas.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/Niron-Magnetics-C2M-Summary-Slide-Tom-Grainger.pptx.pdf https://haas.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/Niron-Magnetics... https://www.nironmagnetics.com/scientific-publications/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/scientific-publications/ Based on their publications, it looks like they have achieved an energy product of 20 mega-gauss-oersteds (MGOe). This is not as high as neodymium iron boron magnets, which can range from about 35-52 MGOe, but it's significantly higher than common ferrite magnets (up to 5.2 MGOe) and is about equal to the lower end of the samarium cobalt magnet range (16-32 MGOe). In one sense iron nitride is very simple; it uses only two common elements and its magnetism has been known for decades. But simple is not easy, since it is difficult to make bulk magnets from the material while maintaining the correct element ratio and structure. I hope that Niron succeeds. I don't know if there are any companies yet trying to commercialize synthetic tetrataenite.
  - brianhorakh 2y ago
    Thank you for the correction!
KennyBlanken 2y ago
Let's kill a couple myths here. EVs and wind turbines aren't the main application of neodymium; industrial motors are. Even into 2050, the forecast is that wind and EV rare earth usage will be 25% of the market. A hybrid contains about 2lb of neodymium magnets. They're not rare; the name doesn't refer to their scarcity. Neodymium is as common as copper, and it's very well distributed around the planet. Materials used in batteries and magnets do not generate much additional mining because a number of them are left over from extraction of other ores like iron and aluminum. These materials are highly recyclable. neodymium isn't recycled because it wasn't economically feasible due to the low cost of neodymium. As demand goes up (and the supply of old neodymium magnets goes up), recycling will become more economically attractive. All this fuss about the mining impacts of materials for batteries and magnets is silly - it's just concern-trolling by the fossil-fuel industry. Nobody was talking about the impact of rare earth mining when 75%+ of it was going into industrial PM motors when there was a revolution in industrial motor design, moving away from Please stop complaining about the "environmental damage of mining for them fancy rare-earth metals in yer prius", especially if you don't care about the environmental damage of putting 30 gallons of gas your truck every couple of days. Or the environmental damage of all the steel and aluminum ore that was mined for you to buy a new 5,000lb truck every few years. If you drive a truck that takes 30 gallons of gas every few days - and you can't change that because you NEED the capability of that truck (as opposed to just dick compensating) - then you should be celebrating every time you see a friend, neighbor, coworker, etc buying a hybrid or EV. They're helping reduce emissions overall, offsetting some of your emissions - as well as helping drive R&D and economy of scale. They're helping you get closer to The very least you can do is not mock them, install "coal rolling" mods, damage their cars, purposefully block or damage charging stations, write comments online about how stupid they are in comments trying to "GOTCHA!" people advocating for greater adoption, etc.

41 points by jnord 2y ago

[dead]

I believe earlier Tesla's used induction motors - which don't tend to have any permanent magnets. The advantage of permanent magnets is pretty small - maybe a couple of percent efficiency. They weigh less, but motor weight is hardly dominant in EVs anyway. The only real resource usage concern for EVs remains the batteries.

dheera 2y ago
I'm not an expert on batteries but why are sodium batteries not a thing? It seems sodium would be much easier to procure across the Earth than lithium.
- bluGill 2y ago
  They are, but building them safely and to high capacity is tricky. So far the lithium we can make is better than the sodium batteries we can make. Though this is an area under active research and so what I wrote is likely out of date. Lithium availability is not the limit to current batteries though.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Same reason most large corporations hardly pay any taxes, I imagine.
- papercrane 2y ago
  Sodium batteries are a thing. There hasn't been much commercialization of them yet, but the main issue for cars is they have lower energy density than lithium batteries. Currently sodium battery makers are focused on stationary battery applications where energy density is less important.
  - osrec 2y ago
    Swappable low cost sodium batteries are where I think cars may end up in the future. Literally, pull into a swapping station, and have your battery swapped out for a charged one in a couple of minutes. Probably faster than fuelling up your car with petrol.
    - matt2000 2y ago
      This is kind of happening at scale in China right now (only some brands are pursuing it though): https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-battery-swapping-china/ https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-battery-swapping-china/ It's an interesting trade off between swapping station cost and time to charge. I suspect charge times will decrease enough that it's not worth all the physical investment in swapping, it may already not be.
      - magicalhippo 2y ago
        Swapping for regular cars is a dead end I think. But for trucks and such I imagine it makes a lot more sense. Much longer charging times vs a quick swap. Much easier to put battery in an easy-to-swap location. Fewer swapping stations needed before it makes sense to utilize it for transportation companies, ie team up with a company that has a few fixed large-volume routes to get going.
    - jjoonathan 2y ago
      Sounds like a big step back from the car charges at home and is "always full" without ever "filling up", except on roadtrips, where it schedules periodic rest stops.
      - gregmac 2y ago
        Doesn't preclude charging at home. Just means "swap stations" instead of charging or gas stations. The (major) challenge is what you do with 400-800kg of batteries and a bunch of different vehicle types from different manufacturers. Standardize the size/placement so a robot can do it? Break it down to smaller pack sizes so a human -- driver or attendant? -- can do it? Have each car manufacturer have their own set of stations? Took everyone long enough to agree on a plug, would it be possible to agree on a swappable pack?
- pkulak 2y ago
  Less kWh per unit mass and volume.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    ...which is fine for energy storage systems in homes, businesses, campuses, and substations.

mschuster91 2y ago

So, first lithium batteries without cobalt, and now motors without rare-earth metals. The end of combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells is coming to an end, no matter what the fossil fuel lobby and the politicians they bought off try to propagandize.

hulitu 2y ago
Well, the bier without alcohol did not made people change from the one with. /s
- thenipper 2y ago
  Anecdotally I'd say it actually has. Myself and a bunch of friends have moved to non-alcoholic craft beers.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    If you like IPAs or light beer, NA beer is having a renaissance. Dark beer, not so much.
    - thenipper 2y ago
      I like the dark beer from Athletic. The 'All Out'. It's pretty tasty. N/A Guinness on the other hand is disgusting.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Rinzler89 2y ago
>now motors without rare-earth metals NOW?! Electric motors without rare earth magnets have exited since the very beginning of electric motors, long before those with rare earth magnets became popular due to their better efficiency. They're only now becoming unpopular due to the trade war with China where most of the mining was happening, not because they're somehow worse.
2y ago

brianhorakh 2y ago

The article doesn't say explicitly these are high performance non rare earth magnets. Niron uses synthetic tetrataenite (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrataenite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrataenite) which is a fascinating material. Until a recent 2021 discovery it was believed that you could make it easily, but you'd need to let it cool slowly around 30,000 years! Only a few kg existed on earth from meteors. But iron nitride Fe3N would also be a similarly good and less exotic choice. https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magnets-without-the-rare-earth-elements/ https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magne...

philipkglass 2y ago
Niron Magnetics is using iron nitride: https://haas.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/Niron-Magnetics-C2M-Summary-Slide-Tom-Grainger.pptx.pdf https://haas.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/Niron-Magnetics... https://www.nironmagnetics.com/scientific-publications/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/scientific-publications/ Based on their publications, it looks like they have achieved an energy product of 20 mega-gauss-oersteds (MGOe). This is not as high as neodymium iron boron magnets, which can range from about 35-52 MGOe, but it's significantly higher than common ferrite magnets (up to 5.2 MGOe) and is about equal to the lower end of the samarium cobalt magnet range (16-32 MGOe). In one sense iron nitride is very simple; it uses only two common elements and its magnetism has been known for decades. But simple is not easy, since it is difficult to make bulk magnets from the material while maintaining the correct element ratio and structure. I hope that Niron succeeds. I don't know if there are any companies yet trying to commercialize synthetic tetrataenite.
- brianhorakh 2y ago
  Thank you for the correction!

KennyBlanken 2y ago

Let's kill a couple myths here. EVs and wind turbines aren't the main application of neodymium; industrial motors are. Even into 2050, the forecast is that wind and EV rare earth usage will be 25% of the market. A hybrid contains about 2lb of neodymium magnets. They're not rare; the name doesn't refer to their scarcity. Neodymium is as common as copper, and it's very well distributed around the planet. Materials used in batteries and magnets do not generate much additional mining because a number of them are left over from extraction of other ores like iron and aluminum. These materials are highly recyclable. neodymium isn't recycled because it wasn't economically feasible due to the low cost of neodymium. As demand goes up (and the supply of old neodymium magnets goes up), recycling will become more economically attractive. All this fuss about the mining impacts of materials for batteries and magnets is silly - it's just concern-trolling by the fossil-fuel industry. Nobody was talking about the impact of rare earth mining when 75%+ of it was going into industrial PM motors when there was a revolution in industrial motor design, moving away from Please stop complaining about the "environmental damage of mining for them fancy rare-earth metals in yer prius", especially if you don't care about the environmental damage of putting 30 gallons of gas your truck every couple of days. Or the environmental damage of all the steel and aluminum ore that was mined for you to buy a new 5,000lb truck every few years. If you drive a truck that takes 30 gallons of gas every few days - and you can't change that because you NEED the capability of that truck (as opposed to just dick compensating) - then you should be celebrating every time you see a friend, neighbor, coworker, etc buying a hybrid or EV. They're helping reduce emissions overall, offsetting some of your emissions - as well as helping drive R&D and economy of scale. They're helping you get closer to The very least you can do is not mock them, install "coal rolling" mods, damage their cars, purposefully block or damage charging stations, write comments online about how stupid they are in comments trying to "GOTCHA!" people advocating for greater adoption, etc.