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The 6M is included in the 9. They're not separate counts. That CSA also includes Baltimore so not a vary fair example. Absolutely not the same metro.

by TylerE 2y ago

Retric 2y ago
I was mostly bringing up the 5.2 vs 6.4 both under Metro area. The CSA isn’t necessarily relevant, but a reasonable agreement exists that it’s really the same metro area. The beltways (495, 695) are less than 25 miles apart. Laurel, Maryland is 20 miles from both downtown DC and downtown Baltimore. Meanwhile the other cities from Richmond to Boston are 95-200 miles from each other. I knew someone whose tech support job would regularly send them to both cities in the same day. Apparently many companies located between them so they could easily serve both.
- bradknowles 2y ago
  You can’t just look at distance and judge. I knew guys who lived north of Baltimore but commuted every day to the Pentagon. That doesn’t make Baltimore and DC two parts of the same city. Just like there are people who commute from New York to London, or vice-versa. NyLon is a thing, but that still doesn’t make them two parts of the same city.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Same city is irrelevant, same metro area based on how people behave is what matters. People commuting from downtown Baltimore to DC have a faster commute than many living in well recognized DC suburbs. That’s very different than NyLon.
    - bradknowles 2y ago
      Distance is irrelevant. I lived there. The cultures of DC and Baltimore are fundamentally different. Related, yes. But not the same.
      - Retric 2y ago
        The culture of poor parts of DC is vastly different than the culture of places 2 streets away. Culture is ultra local.
        bradknowles 2y ago
        Culture is fractal, and happens on many different levels. And there are many types of stratifications of culture. And those stratifications can happen in multiple dimensions at the same time. But culture can also refer to a larger conglomeration of smaller cultures, or components of smaller cultures. Just like a meal or dinner from one place can have many different components, and be differently prepared from a meal or dinner of the same overall type from some other place. There are components that may be shared between them, and there might be components that are different. But even if you start out with the exact same components in both places, the end result may be radically different, simply due to the different methods and the different people involved. In the case of DC versus Baltimore, it’s the larger scale differences that I’m talking about.
        Retric 2y ago
        > In the case of DC versus Baltimore, it’s the larger scale differences that I’m talking about. Those differences aren’t larger in scale than Loudan or Fauquier county vs DC. Simply being different doesn’t on its own mean anything here.
        bradknowles 2y ago
        I lived there. I traveled all over that area. The Northern Virginia counties are much closer to the culture in DC than the culture in Baltimore.
        Retric 2y ago
        What parts of DC, Baltimore, and Loudan county did you live in? Culture isn’t easy to find objective measurements but politically things are objectively similar between Baltimore and DC with extremely strong Democratic leanings. 2020 DC voted 5.40% Trump, 92.15% Biden vs Baltimore City 10.69% Trump, 87.28% Biden vs Fauquier County 57% Trump, 40% Biden. DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_the_District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... VA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Virginia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... MD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Maryland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... Poor parts of DC are much closer to poor parts of Baltimore than the rich areas of Loudan county etc.
acjohnson55 2y ago
Having lived in Baltimore, it's juuust far enough from DC to not be a twin city.
- pooper 2y ago
  Just out of curiosity, how far is far enough? As a thought experiment, would a shinkansen running every six minutes change this?
  - jfengel 2y ago
    Instead of a shinkasen running every six minutes, we get a low-speed train that runs about once an hour, and only during working hours. If you work past 8 PM you're going to have to find another way home. I don't really know what's far enough, but culturally they consider themselves entirely distinct. People from one almost never work in the other; the trains that do exist are for bringing people from the suburbs. Even those suburbs are fairly distinct. There's a dividing line at Columbia, MD where people go both directions, and nearly everybody else affiliates themselves with one city or the other. Another way to look at it: they have separate sports teams. They're not even rivals, because they play in different leagues. Within the city fans are pretty exclusive, and the other city's teams aren't of interest. Maybe that would change if it were possible to live in one and work in the other, or if they commonly shared night-life or restaurants or leisure. Instead, the other city is a full-day trip, not a jaunt across town.
    - massysett 2y ago
      None of what’s in this comment or others reflects my experience at all. I work in DC and have had many colleagues who live in downtown Baltimore and Baltimore suburbs, even suburbs north of Baltimore. They have been Orioles fans. Some have driven, others take commuter rail. I live in a suburb that is closer to DC but the commuter pattern on the highway reflects traffic flow to the Baltimore area in the morning and away from it in the evening. My wife and I work in downtown DC and we live closer to DC than Baltimore, but we routinely attend cultural and recreational events in Baltimore and of course fly from the Baltimore airport. We had memberships in the National Aquarium (in Baltimore) and have taken our kids to the Maryland Zoo. They have never been to the National Zoo in DC. Baltimore and DC are absolutely one metro, just like Dallas/Fort Worth and Minneapolis/Saint Paul. That two cities have distinct identities doesn’t mean they aren’t one metro.
bradknowles 2y ago
They expanded the CSA to include Baltimore so as to reduce the average salary rate, and thus they didn’t have to pay for COLA wage increases. From late 1989 to mid 1998, I lived in various parts of Northern Virginia and the Capitol region of Maryland, and made many trips to Baltimore. Totally not the same metro.

The 6M is included in the 9. They're not separate counts. That CSA also includes Baltimore so not a vary fair example. Absolutely not the same metro.

by TylerE 2y ago

The 6M is included in the 9. They're not separate counts. That CSA also includes Baltimore so not a vary fair example. Absolutely not the same metro.

Retric 2y ago

I was mostly bringing up the 5.2 vs 6.4 both under Metro area. The CSA isn’t necessarily relevant, but a reasonable agreement exists that it’s really the same metro area. The beltways (495, 695) are less than 25 miles apart. Laurel, Maryland is 20 miles from both downtown DC and downtown Baltimore. Meanwhile the other cities from Richmond to Boston are 95-200 miles from each other. I knew someone whose tech support job would regularly send them to both cities in the same day. Apparently many companies located between them so they could easily serve both.

bradknowles 2y ago
You can’t just look at distance and judge. I knew guys who lived north of Baltimore but commuted every day to the Pentagon. That doesn’t make Baltimore and DC two parts of the same city. Just like there are people who commute from New York to London, or vice-versa. NyLon is a thing, but that still doesn’t make them two parts of the same city.
- Retric 2y ago
  Same city is irrelevant, same metro area based on how people behave is what matters. People commuting from downtown Baltimore to DC have a faster commute than many living in well recognized DC suburbs. That’s very different than NyLon.
  - bradknowles 2y ago
    Distance is irrelevant. I lived there. The cultures of DC and Baltimore are fundamentally different. Related, yes. But not the same.
    - Retric 2y ago
      The culture of poor parts of DC is vastly different than the culture of places 2 streets away. Culture is ultra local.
      - bradknowles 2y ago
        Culture is fractal, and happens on many different levels. And there are many types of stratifications of culture. And those stratifications can happen in multiple dimensions at the same time. But culture can also refer to a larger conglomeration of smaller cultures, or components of smaller cultures. Just like a meal or dinner from one place can have many different components, and be differently prepared from a meal or dinner of the same overall type from some other place. There are components that may be shared between them, and there might be components that are different. But even if you start out with the exact same components in both places, the end result may be radically different, simply due to the different methods and the different people involved. In the case of DC versus Baltimore, it’s the larger scale differences that I’m talking about.
        Retric 2y ago
        > In the case of DC versus Baltimore, it’s the larger scale differences that I’m talking about. Those differences aren’t larger in scale than Loudan or Fauquier county vs DC. Simply being different doesn’t on its own mean anything here.
        bradknowles 2y ago
        I lived there. I traveled all over that area. The Northern Virginia counties are much closer to the culture in DC than the culture in Baltimore.
        Retric 2y ago
        What parts of DC, Baltimore, and Loudan county did you live in? Culture isn’t easy to find objective measurements but politically things are objectively similar between Baltimore and DC with extremely strong Democratic leanings. 2020 DC voted 5.40% Trump, 92.15% Biden vs Baltimore City 10.69% Trump, 87.28% Biden vs Fauquier County 57% Trump, 40% Biden. DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_the_District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... VA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Virginia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... MD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Maryland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidentia... Poor parts of DC are much closer to poor parts of Baltimore than the rich areas of Loudan county etc.

acjohnson55 2y ago

Having lived in Baltimore, it's juuust far enough from DC to not be a twin city.

pooper 2y ago
Just out of curiosity, how far is far enough? As a thought experiment, would a shinkansen running every six minutes change this?
- jfengel 2y ago
  Instead of a shinkasen running every six minutes, we get a low-speed train that runs about once an hour, and only during working hours. If you work past 8 PM you're going to have to find another way home. I don't really know what's far enough, but culturally they consider themselves entirely distinct. People from one almost never work in the other; the trains that do exist are for bringing people from the suburbs. Even those suburbs are fairly distinct. There's a dividing line at Columbia, MD where people go both directions, and nearly everybody else affiliates themselves with one city or the other. Another way to look at it: they have separate sports teams. They're not even rivals, because they play in different leagues. Within the city fans are pretty exclusive, and the other city's teams aren't of interest. Maybe that would change if it were possible to live in one and work in the other, or if they commonly shared night-life or restaurants or leisure. Instead, the other city is a full-day trip, not a jaunt across town.
  - massysett 2y ago
    None of what’s in this comment or others reflects my experience at all. I work in DC and have had many colleagues who live in downtown Baltimore and Baltimore suburbs, even suburbs north of Baltimore. They have been Orioles fans. Some have driven, others take commuter rail. I live in a suburb that is closer to DC but the commuter pattern on the highway reflects traffic flow to the Baltimore area in the morning and away from it in the evening. My wife and I work in downtown DC and we live closer to DC than Baltimore, but we routinely attend cultural and recreational events in Baltimore and of course fly from the Baltimore airport. We had memberships in the National Aquarium (in Baltimore) and have taken our kids to the Maryland Zoo. They have never been to the National Zoo in DC. Baltimore and DC are absolutely one metro, just like Dallas/Fort Worth and Minneapolis/Saint Paul. That two cities have distinct identities doesn’t mean they aren’t one metro.

bradknowles 2y ago

They expanded the CSA to include Baltimore so as to reduce the average salary rate, and thus they didn’t have to pay for COLA wage increases. From late 1989 to mid 1998, I lived in various parts of Northern Virginia and the Capitol region of Maryland, and made many trips to Baltimore. Totally not the same metro.