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Australia out of natural gas, pays gas companies to export its reserves
- andrewstuart 2y agoAustralia pays the natural gas companies to steal our natural gas then we run out of natural gas and pay them to buy it back from them.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- toomuchtodo 2y agoWon’t the rising cost of fossil gas due to these issues speed electrification? Behold the death spiral, embrace the death spiral! (As more fossil gas consumers electrify, an ever smaller population must support the network fixed costs, driving up costs and continuing to more rapidly push consumers to electrify; like bankruptcy, it happens slowly, and then all of a sudden) https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-blow-to-fossil-gas-as-regulator-shifts-death-spiral-risk-to-new-connections/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-blow-to-fossil-gas-as-regula... https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/energy-blog-are-gas-utilities-about-to-enter-a-death-spiral https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/energy-blog-ar...
- guidedlight 2y agoIt will particularly in Victoria, which has highest number of residential gas connections (90%). However, the primary dispatchable electricity generation comes from gas fired power plants. To say, Australia has a dependance on gas is an understatement. Unfortunately, there has been considerable in-action and lack of investment mainly due to the main political parties having competing energy policies. The conservatives previously had a "gas led" generation plan, but due to the gas crisis they have switched to a nuclear-led proposal (Australia has no nuclear power plants, and no expertise in them). The current government is pushing renewables and storage, however progress has been slow due to land owners being unwilling to allow new transmission lines and environmental concerns about offshore wind infrastructure. Meanwhile about half of Australia's energy comes aging coal power plants, whose live has been extended, all of which are due for phased retirement in the near future.
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40808618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40808618 ("Australia electricity grid with 100% renewables and 120GWh batteries") https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-07/end-of-coal-power-in-australia-means-a-boom-for-battery-makers-like-tesla https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-07/end-of-co... | https://archive.today/2owbd https://archive.today/2owbd ("Australia’s rapid shift from coal-fired power to cleaner alternatives is underwriting a boom in battery projects able to store solar and wind energy. The country has at least 250 planned battery developments with a potential capacity of almost 130,000 megawatt-hours, a pipeline that’s second only to China, data compiled by BloombergNEF show. While Australia still relies on coal for more than half of its electricity generation, many major plants are set to close in the next decade.") https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/energy/resources/other-renewable-energy-resources/solar-energy https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/energy/resources/oth... ("Australia receives an average of 58 million PJ of solar radiation per year, approximately 10,000 times larger than its total energy consumption. However, Australia's current use of solar energy is low with solar energy accounting for only about 0.1 per cent of Australia's total primary energy consumption.")
- guidedlight 2y agoYep. This is the current direction. As I said, investment uncertainty due to the alternative nuclear proposal, issues with transmission lines, and environment issues for wind projects are the main barriers.
- roenxi 2y ago> investment uncertainty due to the alternative nuclear proposal I think it is a stretch to say that the nuclear proposal is creating any investment uncertainty. What is there to be uncertain about? Optimistically the coalition has to win government then the plant will take >10 years to be designed and constructed (probably much longer assuming that something goes wrong politically). The power produced by such a plant will almost certainly be expensive. Unless Labor makes more supportive sounds it'd be quite reckless to invest in the project as a private investor. That is far enough out and a small enough commercial risk that it probably doesn't change the investment landscape in the here and now. We could see any number of similar policies as we feel the political backlash from mismanaging our energy infrastructure.
- XorNot 2y agoI've had gas service removed from my house and the pipes taken out - but that was for environmental reasons - I'm committed to only using electrical (i.e. fuel independent) appliances.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoI salute your efforts, onward.
- bhickey 2y agoAt my last house, I removed the gas stove and replaced it with induction. I had two motivations: * Gas stoves are awful for indoor air quality * Compared to induction, they're awful to cook on
- tmnvix 2y agoIf only manufacturers would use knobs instead of those horrible and often unintuitive touch interfaces. Here's hoping the slow acknowledgement that touch controls in vehicles are usually a bad idea makes its way to other appliances.
- ericd 2y agoYeah, options are limited, but there are a few. We got an LG one from Costco with knobs (was a major filter for us).
- dzhiurgis 2y agoNot gonna happen. Touch interface is cheaper, more reliable and easier to clean. Maybe someone will make one with pot motion sensor where turning pot around controls levels. But I’m not holding hope.
- XorNot 2y agoSamsung make one with a magnetic knob for controlling it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4OhGdPjmc4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4OhGdPjmc4 So the underlying surface is smooth but you can have a physical control.
- ars 2y agoI thought you were exaggerating, but that really is what happening (except for the steal part - your comment would be better without exaggerating). So instead of selling the gas externally (because they are contractually bound to do so) and then import other gas, I would suggest buying gas from elsewhere to deliver to fulfill the contract and then use the local gas locally. It would need an analysis of costs. The reason for all this trouble is apparently the gas field production has gone down faster than predicted.
- guidedlight 2y agoThe challenge is that Australia is big, really big. The population is sparse and mainly lives in a few coastal areas. The parts of Australia that have gas and are exporting it (the west and north), are quite distant from the parts of Australia that are running out of gas and need it locally (the east and south). In this scenario, it's easier and cheaper to use existing export terminals to send ships to those other parts of the country that need the gas. Unfortunately the optics of doing this is bad.
- dylan604 2y agoAre you saying that Australia is extracting the gas in the North and West then shipping it to the South and East directly (using ships instead of laying pipes) or that they are exporting to whomever buys it and then importing from anyone selling it (buying foreign gas)? There's a lot of joking/confusion around US oil being sold to foreign countries while buying foreign oil. However, a lot of that has to do with the fact the refineries are built to use heavy crude oil while the US oil is light/sweet crude so that they aren't really compatible. Sometimes, the export/import practices sound dumb on face value, but turn out to have some logic once the surface is scratched.
- _s 2y agoMy understanding is that it’s a bit of both. The best analogy for USA equivalent is that imagine Alaska is where we have a bunch of oil / gas, but we need it in New York and Miami. We can’t lay pipes because of terrain / distance, and the road infrastructure is pretty spotty too. The companies extracting / producing / selling the oil/gas off in Alaska are private and separate to the companies wanting to buy it in NYC or Miami. There’s minimal government oversight. It might work out cheaper for the companies to buy gas coming from eg Europe or Canada or Mexico for NYC/Miami vs Alaska (in our instance it would be SE Asia / China). Or from Alaska.
- ozim 2y agoYou do understand that world is much more complicated? Having natural gas in the ground is not really that lucrative - having technology to extract that gas and later sell it is. You might argue as much as you want but try to heat up a house with gas that is far below the ground, good luck
- grecy 2y agoSame thing with electricity - some of the highest prices in the world on one of the sunniest continents in the world. Australia was sold a long time ago, and regular people are now paying the price.
- Molitor5901 2y agohttps://archive.is/oegzu https://archive.is/oegzu
- Molitor5901 2y agoBrett Woods, the chief executive of gas producer Beach Energy... Woods also warned importing gas could increase local prices for manufacturers that relied on gas for energy or as a feedstock by lifting their exposure to the volatile global commodity market, putting local jobs at risk. He is calling for governments to focus on opening new gas fields and building more storage facilities ahead of imports. Another point for nuclear energy?
- andyferris 2y agoUnfortunately I don't think that would work - I would guess that the current situation will resolve before any reactors are online. Possibly even our export contractural obligations would expire by then, too! (Should have built the nukes 20-30 years ago...)
- OgsyedIE 2y agoThe molecules of natgas are physically reacted to make methanol, pyrolysis gasoline, butadiene, isobutene and MTBE[1], all of which are important precursors to thousands of product categories. Supposing that you have all of the electricity you want without natgas, where are you going to get the feedstock carbon for cracking? [1] There are also many other natgas products but the five I've listed are about 98% of natgas chemical production.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- SnorkelTan 2y agoSome stats I found with chat gpt: global oil production: 103.5 mbd (million barrels of oil) percentage not combusted: 15-20% natural gas: 4,400 bcm (billion cubic meters) percentage not combusted: 20-30% not combusted meaning used as an input in some other industrial process such as petrochemicals as you mentioned.
- Sabinus 2y agoDid you use chat gpt to find sources or did you have it generate those numbers? Because if it's the latter those numbers are worthless.
- ggm 2y agoNo conversation about Australian East Coast gas supply stupidity is complete without mention of West Coast gas supply. Somehow it frequently escapes mention that gas on the west coast is subject to state required supplies to domestic markets and shock horrors the world has not ended. East coast state governments were craven and stupid. They took royalty deals and didn't require supply continuity and exposed their voters to world prices.
- mmerlin 2y agoAustralia is burdened with ex-PM John Howard's fixed-price gas export deals until 2031. 500% domestic price rises. https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2024/06/japan-and-albo-rort-aussies-of-gas/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2024/06/japan-and-albo-rort... "Cheaper" for the state of Victoria to re-import the gas already exported e.g. by Queensland to Japan at a loss (when subsidies and cleanup costs added - no security deposits to cover the cleanup of abandoned sites and offshore drilling rig abandoned offshore). Liberal petro-lobbyists using their failed policies as a reason to start fracking farmland. Gross failures in governance, because the entrenched system of post-politics "jobs for our mates" are awarded to the political stooges. IIRC pretty much every single Australian mining or resources minister post-politics works for the same companies they gifted billions to as a legislator.
- ggm 2y agoVictoria == East coast. (For anyone who doesn't know)
- gonzo41 2y agoHappy accident, it will drive renewables growth. If the LPG companies were smart they would swoop in here trying to save the day and reduce demand for power to make less money today but more money over time.
- mistrial9 2y agowait for Part II -- legal restrictions of access to markets, with a companion of local taxes on certain products. (just guessing)
- andrewstuart 2y agoThis "Honest Government Ad" about Western Australia give a funny and tragically accurate explanation of how the giant gas exporters have bought up former politicians and as a result Western Australia is now pretty much owned by the gas companies. It's systemtic corruption on the grandest scale and Australia instead of making billions for its natural resources like Norway does or Saudi Arabia or Russia do, actually pays the gas companies to take our gas. Yes its ridiculous - Australia instead of making massive money as a fossil fuel exporter, pays to get rid of the stuff. The video makes it clear why. Which then gets sold for example to Japan, which on sells it as a higher price. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Key8y1yg2yQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Key8y1yg2yQ Australia is being robbed blind in broad daylight.
- russelg 2y agoFunnily enough, WA does not have the same gas supply issues as the east coast. Despite the WA govt. being in the gas producers back pocket, there are still agreements in place which force them to save a certain percent of gas for domestic use.
- wingworks 2y agoVery similar story in NZ, we're giving away our clean water for free..
- c_o_n_v_e_x 2y agoIs there any party thats even willing to discuss breaking the gas "deals?" I see guys like Punterspolitics on Instagram who discuss this topic, but I haven't seen any solutions proposed.
- andrewstuart 2y agoAny government that had courage would simply say "nope, those deals are ended". Politicians are weak and in utter fear of business.
- iamthemonster 2y agoI work for an oil and gas producer in WA and it is absolutely shocking to me how blatant is the corruption of state politics. WA state politics is a failed state, which is 100% captured by resource companies. When the WA EPA advised (not decided - advised, which is their remit) that state government environmental approvals should consider the CO2 emissions of the projects under approval... The resource companies got the state premier to phone the head of the EPA and instruct him to cancel the advice immediately. So the WA EPA may as well not exist. This was all confirmed to have happened after the fact (although of course we all knew at the time). The newspapers were unanimously on the side of the resource companies. WA is a beautiful, prosperous banana republic.
- pharrington 2y agoandrewstuart, why did you editorialize the article's title from "Does gas-rich Australia really need to start importing it?" to "Australia out of natural gas, pays gas companies to export its reserves"?
- tim333 2y agoI was going to say the headline doesn't make much sense. I mean the reality is roughly: Eastern Australia low on gas, may ship it from western Australia. Which is less dramatic.
- m3047 2y agoIn the United States a ship which consecutively enters two US ports to load and unload a cargo needs to be a US documented vessel. This is not that farfetched, and I have friends in France and worry about their gas supply when New England has a hard winter.