6 ms·

I have a 6 year old son, who recently finished a language class (Hindi) and a chess class. In both of these, he got a medal. Why? Because everyone got a medal.

by yumraj 14y ago

I have a 6 year old son, who recently finished a language class (Hindi) and a chess class. In both of these, he got a medal. Why? Because everyone got a medal. So, in end, he is happy, with a sense of achievement, but what achievement I don't know. I believe that failure in life is important, at least was for me, otherwise I would never have tried harder. But if people are given something for nothing, how do you define/measure success.

protomyth 14y ago
Failure has another great importance, it tells you what your good at and sets you up to try new things or ways. I love golf, but I know that no matter how much time I put into it, I won't be great. Its still a fun thing to do, but I know not to make a career of it. I failed a lot at programming at the start, but I had enough real successes to keep going. You need the honest feedback to make real decisions. This "everyone gets a medal" culture doesn't give the right feedback so people grow up and have disappointing lives until the can change or die.
- kingkilr 14y ago
  Failure also produces a lot of false negatives though, I've failed at a lot of things not because I was bad at them (though, lord knows I have enough failures because of that), but because of bad luck, or bad instruction, or what have you.
  - billswift 14y ago
    Failure is a better signal than success though. You can also succeed through luck and other mostly irrelevant circumstances; but if you are trying to succeed, then you only fail despite your efforts.
    - argv_empty 14y ago
      Both cases still require examination of the situation to determine whether the success/failure is attributable to luck, skill, effort, etc.
  - protomyth 14y ago
    But, most people can feel that. I knew I was going to do fine at programming despite the shaky start. It felt good and I was doing little things right. The problem is the distortion of your judgement from people who believe no one should fail (or excel really). It makes you not trust your own gut reaction.
  - awj 14y ago
    Most of the people I've seen who were shielded from failure don't make this distinction. They attribute it to bad luck and don't learn anything or assume they're innately terrible and never try again. There's a fine line between teaching children to learn from failure and allowing failure to discourage them inappropriately. The solution is to walk it carefully, not stay so far away from it that people never learn to persevere.
    - zzzeek 14y ago
      Thanks for making this point, amongst many posts looking down upon so-called "self-esteem" culture. I can't say if the methods being used today to give kids "self-esteem" are misguided and/or ineffective. But I can say that the entire point of true "self-esteem" is exactly so that failure is perceived as a learning experience and not a discouragement. Genuine self-esteem needs to be the backdrop, regardless of whether or not "medals and rewards for everyone" are entirely the wrong way to achieve that. Edit: I think what I'm trying to say is that there's a difference between self-esteem and self-entitlement.
  - rquantz 14y ago
    Funny, I was going to throw some concurring examples from sports your way. "Michael Jorden was cut from his high school basketball team." "Yogi Berra was repeatedly denied a spot on a major league team." But in looking for citations, I seem to have disproven myself. Turns out, Jorden was never cut, he just didn't make varsity as a sophomore, like almost all sophomores, at least partly because, at 15, he was still under 6 feet tall. [1] As for Berra, the only reference I found was a claim on wikipedia that he was kept off the Cardinals by a team president who was moving to the Dodgers and was hoping to sign Berra there. [2] These examples certainly don't mean that there are no false negatives when it comes to failure, but I think it's interesting that these two famous stories about great players overcoming early adversity are bunk. It is probably the case that most people start out not being so good at something, then gradually get better, with any early success compounding over time. [1] http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/the-man-who-cut-michael-jordan-in-high-school-sort-of/ http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/the-man-wh... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra
jcromartie 14y ago
A medal seems silly, but here in this part of the US it's common to see 5th grade and 8th grade graduation ceremonies, complete with parties, fancy dresses, and gifts, for the near 100% of kids who met the minimum requirements of the lower levels of their compulsory age-based schooling. It seems like it's even more common among people who have the least to celebrate: middle-to-upper-middle-class suburban White parents, where your kids practically can't fail school even if they try.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  Do any students fail public school grades anymore? Do students get 'held back'? Back in the 70s, I knew students who were 'held back' - repeated 4th grade again, etc. I don't think I've heard of that since then. Obviously I'm no longer a 4th grader :) but among people I know with kids, the concept of "held back" never comes up.
  - younata 14y ago
    No. Even if you deserve to be 'held back', you get what's called a 'social promotion'. In 8th grade, there was this big project we (each student) had to do in order to 'pass' 8th grade. The teachers all told us that if we didn't do it, we'd fail 8th grade, but still go on to high school as a 'social promotion'. I actually had several friends who decided to not do that project, because nothing bad would happen to them if they didn't do it.
    - mjdwitt 14y ago
      Those social promotions are clearly screwed up, especially as old as eighth grade. As a counterpoint anecdote, however, my mother is a kindergarten teacher who holds back (on average) two students a year for failure to understand the material or social immaturity that would prevent them from learning anything in first grade. And this is in a state (Indiana) in which kindergarten is voluntary.
    - michaelcampbell 14y ago
      Never heard of that but I don't doubt you. In the (public) school my son goes to, people do get held back.
markkanof 14y ago
I don't even think it should be assumed that if no medal was given out then the child is a failure. I remember getting participation trophies as a young child (under 10) and at the time I was confused as to why I was getting it. Had they not given out the trophy I would have thought nothing of it. Just that the activity is over. No sense of failure (or success for that matter), just the general passage of time.
leak 14y ago
In 3rd grade, my teacher would give us star stickers that reflected how well we did in the class with participation, attendance, behavior, etc. I have a picture of me at my desk with these stars and in the picture there is another student with their stars showing. I had about 5x the amount of stars. The student behind me ended up earning a PhD in her education while I have a BS.

by yumraj 14y ago

protomyth 14y ago

Failure has another great importance, it tells you what your good at and sets you up to try new things or ways. I love golf, but I know that no matter how much time I put into it, I won't be great. Its still a fun thing to do, but I know not to make a career of it. I failed a lot at programming at the start, but I had enough real successes to keep going. You need the honest feedback to make real decisions. This "everyone gets a medal" culture doesn't give the right feedback so people grow up and have disappointing lives until the can change or die.

kingkilr 14y ago
Failure also produces a lot of false negatives though, I've failed at a lot of things not because I was bad at them (though, lord knows I have enough failures because of that), but because of bad luck, or bad instruction, or what have you.
- billswift 14y ago
  Failure is a better signal than success though. You can also succeed through luck and other mostly irrelevant circumstances; but if you are trying to succeed, then you only fail despite your efforts.
  - argv_empty 14y ago
    Both cases still require examination of the situation to determine whether the success/failure is attributable to luck, skill, effort, etc.
- protomyth 14y ago
  But, most people can feel that. I knew I was going to do fine at programming despite the shaky start. It felt good and I was doing little things right. The problem is the distortion of your judgement from people who believe no one should fail (or excel really). It makes you not trust your own gut reaction.
- awj 14y ago
  Most of the people I've seen who were shielded from failure don't make this distinction. They attribute it to bad luck and don't learn anything or assume they're innately terrible and never try again. There's a fine line between teaching children to learn from failure and allowing failure to discourage them inappropriately. The solution is to walk it carefully, not stay so far away from it that people never learn to persevere.
  - zzzeek 14y ago
    Thanks for making this point, amongst many posts looking down upon so-called "self-esteem" culture. I can't say if the methods being used today to give kids "self-esteem" are misguided and/or ineffective. But I can say that the entire point of true "self-esteem" is exactly so that failure is perceived as a learning experience and not a discouragement. Genuine self-esteem needs to be the backdrop, regardless of whether or not "medals and rewards for everyone" are entirely the wrong way to achieve that. Edit: I think what I'm trying to say is that there's a difference between self-esteem and self-entitlement.
- rquantz 14y ago
  Funny, I was going to throw some concurring examples from sports your way. "Michael Jorden was cut from his high school basketball team." "Yogi Berra was repeatedly denied a spot on a major league team." But in looking for citations, I seem to have disproven myself. Turns out, Jorden was never cut, he just didn't make varsity as a sophomore, like almost all sophomores, at least partly because, at 15, he was still under 6 feet tall. [1] As for Berra, the only reference I found was a claim on wikipedia that he was kept off the Cardinals by a team president who was moving to the Dodgers and was hoping to sign Berra there. [2] These examples certainly don't mean that there are no false negatives when it comes to failure, but I think it's interesting that these two famous stories about great players overcoming early adversity are bunk. It is probably the case that most people start out not being so good at something, then gradually get better, with any early success compounding over time. [1] http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/the-man-who-cut-michael-jordan-in-high-school-sort-of/ http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/the-man-wh... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra

jcromartie 14y ago

A medal seems silly, but here in this part of the US it's common to see 5th grade and 8th grade graduation ceremonies, complete with parties, fancy dresses, and gifts, for the near 100% of kids who met the minimum requirements of the lower levels of their compulsory age-based schooling. It seems like it's even more common among people who have the least to celebrate: middle-to-upper-middle-class suburban White parents, where your kids practically can't fail school even if they try.

mgkimsal 14y ago
Do any students fail public school grades anymore? Do students get 'held back'? Back in the 70s, I knew students who were 'held back' - repeated 4th grade again, etc. I don't think I've heard of that since then. Obviously I'm no longer a 4th grader :) but among people I know with kids, the concept of "held back" never comes up.
- younata 14y ago
  No. Even if you deserve to be 'held back', you get what's called a 'social promotion'. In 8th grade, there was this big project we (each student) had to do in order to 'pass' 8th grade. The teachers all told us that if we didn't do it, we'd fail 8th grade, but still go on to high school as a 'social promotion'. I actually had several friends who decided to not do that project, because nothing bad would happen to them if they didn't do it.
  - mjdwitt 14y ago
    Those social promotions are clearly screwed up, especially as old as eighth grade. As a counterpoint anecdote, however, my mother is a kindergarten teacher who holds back (on average) two students a year for failure to understand the material or social immaturity that would prevent them from learning anything in first grade. And this is in a state (Indiana) in which kindergarten is voluntary.
  - michaelcampbell 14y ago
    Never heard of that but I don't doubt you. In the (public) school my son goes to, people do get held back.

markkanof 14y ago

I don't even think it should be assumed that if no medal was given out then the child is a failure. I remember getting participation trophies as a young child (under 10) and at the time I was confused as to why I was getting it. Had they not given out the trophy I would have thought nothing of it. Just that the activity is over. No sense of failure (or success for that matter), just the general passage of time.

leak 14y ago

In 3rd grade, my teacher would give us star stickers that reflected how well we did in the class with participation, attendance, behavior, etc. I have a picture of me at my desk with these stars and in the picture there is another student with their stars showing. I had about 5x the amount of stars. The student behind me ended up earning a PhD in her education while I have a BS.